Button- Possible '09 F1 Champion without a drive

[PNSD]

BAR paid???

I think you'll find it was Button's own money.

It was a mistake from his managers side.

[Richard]

Silly season nonsense (or all season Jordon nonsense) - the Brawn line up is a big love in, Ross glows when talking about Ruben and Jensen. Also the two drivers have the best body language on the podium that I've seen in years.

I think the preferred option will be to maintain the status quo, that team have had too much change recently, they need to build a solid consistent track record over several seasons. Ross is the sort of guys who doesn't get distracted by flip-flopping on this sort of thing, that's why he closed the door to Senna last winter.

Of course there could be an exception, but I'd wager no change.

[Shaddock]

Button has a history of being beaten by 'journey-man' team mates, rather than putting them firmly in their place, to be considered a 'top driver'.

He lost to Ralf in his first year, but better as the season progressed and arguably against a Ralf on top form, then he's only lost to Fizzy in 2001 in less than great circumstances. Other than he beat Jarno in 2002, former champion in 03, Sato in 04 and 05, Rubens in 06 and 07 then lost to Rubens last year.

Trulli was certainly the better qualifier but he lost out when it came to races.

He pretty much ended Jacques career, Sato was considered as quick, but again when it came to races Jenson just blew him away. Rubens, again same story. Is arguably as quick, if not quicker over a single lap but once again on the most part in races Jenson is generally quicker.

So over the course of a whole season he has been beaten by the 'Sulk', Fizzy, and Rubens. Not something any driver would be proud of or want on their CV.

Great driver aren’t beaten consistently my mediocrity, and Jenson is/was. Sato wasn't especially quick, he was just the fastest Japanese driver around at that time.

Yes, it was karting, but the point I was making was it was Keke's team he set up for his son. The paddock rumour is that Keke is doesn't want a Lewis & Nico in the same team.

[PNSD]

Beaten consistently ??! Where do you get that from?

I know this form of argument is very flawed however, Massa, you the man who lost the championship by one point last year, he also to Giancarlo. Montoya was beaten by Ralf too in his first season! Again at Ralf at his best.

Button's 2001 season awful. He will be the first admit. He was out of his depth and going nowhere.

As for Rubens, Button only lost in 2008. In 06 and 07 Button convincingly beat him. Thats not being beaten consistently is it?

I just rubbish the comment of "Button having a history of being beaten by Journey-man' team-mates."

[Shaddock]

Beaten consistently ??! Where do you get that from?

I know this form of argument is very flawed however, Massa, you the man who lost the championship by one point last year, he also to Giancarlo. Montoya was beaten by Ralf too in his first season! Again at Ralf at his best.

Button's 2001 season awful. He will be the first admit. He was out of his depth and going nowhere.

As for Rubens, Button only lost in 2008. In 06 and 07 Button convincingly beat him. Thats not being beaten consistently is it?

I just rubbish the comment of "Button having a history of being beaten by Journey-man' team-mates."

Montoya was also beaten by Kimi before he became WDC, Villeneuve was beaten by Hill, who himself was beaten by Prost. The list goes on and on.

Button hasn't ever had to battle it out with a 'great' driver in the same team, and you can't imagine another driver being fearful of him being their teammate. He's struggling to see off a Shumi's old patsy at Brawn.

[kilcoo316]

This rumor has no depth, can you really imagine Brawn awarding the drivers who have made his first year so successful with no drive for 2010.

Yup.

Both are mediocre drivers flattered by a great car.

[PNSD]

Beaten consistently ??! Where do you get that from?

I know this form of argument is very flawed however, Massa, you the man who lost the championship by one point last year, he also to Giancarlo. Montoya was beaten by Ralf too in his first season! Again at Ralf at his best.

Button's 2001 season awful. He will be the first admit. He was out of his depth and going nowhere.

As for Rubens, Button only lost in 2008. In 06 and 07 Button convincingly beat him. Thats not being beaten consistently is it?

I just rubbish the comment of "Button having a history of being beaten by Journey-man' team-mates."

Montoya was also beaten by Kimi before he became WDC, Villeneuve was beaten by Hill, who himself was beaten by Prost. The list goes on and on.

Button hasn't ever had to battle it out with a 'great' driver in the same team, and you can't imagine another driver being fearful of him being their teammate. He's struggling to see off a Shumi's old patsy at Brawn.

Thats exactly why i said that form of argument was flawed...

Rubens is perhaps driving the best he ever has. At Ferrari it was all about Schumacher, Rubens maybe not a match for Schumacher (who was??) but he ran against him well. Buttons confortably beaten Rubens in 2 out of 3 seasons and currently has 6 wins to Barachello's 2... he's hardly struggling.

Either way this debate is pointless. You have your view and I have mine. They are wide apart and wont converge.

[Giblet]

but Ross has gone on record saying that it was a mistake not looking at Jens when he was at Ferrari.

If Ross is blown away by Jenson's driving and near perfect looking telemetry, why would you say he's mediocre?

Listing teammates from years past really has little bearing on the here and now, but people seem to think what teammate beat who 5 years ago is an actual argument.

It simply is not. Some drivers are pure talent and never get better, some have a little less talent and work really hard to make up for it, and get better.

What is happening right now has the most bearing on who is "the better driver".

The one that has the ability to win when needed when given the car needed to do so, is the best driver AT THAT TIME.

[gibells]

More than any kind of performance related talent, when a driver starts disrespecting the team (the way Rubens did), he's not going to be kept on long term. I'd wager Brawn keeps Button, and gets a long term partnership set up with Mercedes/Norbert Haug by signing Rosberg.

[xpensive]

Ross Brawn is no fool, with the results from this season and Mercedes firmly on board for 2010 and beyond, he knows he don't need to beg anyone to drive his cars for next year, not even Alonso and certainly not Button.

Just like Frank Williams in the nineties, when dropping three WDC's like a ton of bricks as they asked for too much.

[Shaddock]

If Ross is blown away by Jenson's driving and near perfect looking telemetry, why would you say he's mediocre?

Because I don't rate Rubens as a world class driver, nice guy yes, but in the same league as recent WDC, NO. Button should be dominating Rubens this year and he isn't.

[PNSD]

Again, possibly a flawed argument..

But comparing averages.

In 2002 in qualifying about on average 1 place beind Michael, in the races again discounting DNF,s nad DNS in RB's case it was again 1 place.

Now this year, Buttons qualifying against Rubens is the same average, exactly the same strangley enough but qualifying was never Buttons strength, as for races, again on average he is one place behind, like in 2002.

That means nothing tbh. But Button's had 4 poles this year to Barachello's 0. 6 wins to Barachello's 2.

[Confused_Andy]

If Ross is blown away by Jenson's driving and near perfect looking telemetry, why would you say he's mediocre?

Because I don't rate Rubens as a world class driver, nice guy yes, but in the same league as recent WDC, NO. Button should be dominating Rubens this year and he isn't.

He is though...

[Shaddock]

Again, possibly a flawed argument..

But comparing averages.

In 2002 in qualifying about on average 1 place beind Michael, in the races again discounting DNF,s nad DNS in RB's case it was again 1 place.

Now this year, Buttons qualifying against Rubens is the same average, exactly the same strangley enough but qualifying was never Buttons strength, as for races, again on average he is one place behind, like in 2002.

That means nothing tbh. But Button's had 4 poles this year to Barachello's 0. 6 wins to Barachello's 2.

Nice figures

I prefer mine for 2002

Pos Driver Nationality Team Points

1 Michael Schumacher German Ferrari 144
2 Rubens Barrichello Brazilian Ferrari 77

Almost double the points by the end of the season, this was when Rubens was younger and probably quicker.

[PNSD]

probably quicker??

I think it has been generally accepted by all that right now Rubens is at his best. He himself says that, and if he knew he was not as quick as before then he has always said he would gladly step aside.

A younger Jenson was certainly not as quicker as the older Jenson now !

A 36 year old Schumacher was arguably quicker than he was 10+ years before.

Age?? Pah!!