New teams buying BMW/Toyota Chassis IP for 2010

[vall]

I don't think it'd work based purely on the fact that STR are saying that there're so very few parts that they can take over from this years car to next years for their own design.

Realistically, how useful is it to you have plans for a year old car when the changes are large? Greater weight, longer wheelbase, different ballast layout, different front tyres.

I would expect much of it would carry over.

in STR's and RBR's case the '09 car was never designed with the DDD in mind, largely incompatible when initial fitments were discussed, and definitely not a design that could be optimised for its use. i think that's why there is little carry-over there. the same is said of Ferrari, hence them giving up on the 09 car and admitting the '10 car is very different.

TF109 was built around the DDD, so there's a greater chance of more carry-over design.

McLaran was also not designed around DDD, but they pushed the development until the very end of '09. I wonder if this was wise decision? True, they were fast the second half of 09, but still the changes fro 2010 are not small

[dumrick]

Picking up an xisting design could be seen like a quick fix, but the implementation of somebody elses IP might not be that easy after all, when you first of all have to build the car accordingly. Furthermore, I can imagine that a lot of "reverse-engineering" needs to be done anyway, all in order to understand the design as well as future developments properly?

Unless you can get the engineers as well, but better off buying the entire team, me thinks.

True, 1994 Pacific's adventure with Rory Byrne's Reynard design spring to mind. They had to design their own 1995 racer from scratch, because they had no clue how to develop the design.
On the other hand, Manor's car is being designed at Simtek and Campos' at Dallara, so I can't see the logic behind any of these teams buying designs after having already bought them from somebody else.

EDIT: Nick Wirth was stated to Racecar Engineering that Manor's car has also already been crash tested, which makes it even more improbable for the design to be replaced by another one.
These designs (mainly Toyota's) could also be still bought by anyone underperforming in 2010, for development and use in 2011...

[Conceptual]

If the Toyota comes with a dossier (Like the F2007 Stepneygate) and the moulds, I would think that it would be worth buying, and running the car all year in 2010 without updates, so you could use it as the platform for the 2011 car with a years worth of understanding, ala Super Aguri.

PS: Any chance that Super Aguri might pick up Toyota team? THAT would be great, especially with 2 Japanese drivers on the market that can bring personal sponsorship...

[sknguy]

Ah yes Super Aguri... remember that the Super Aguri SA05 was based on the 2002 Arrows A23. Oddly enough, if you read the history of the A23 chassis both Minardi and Super Aguri got a lot of mileage out of the A23 chassis. That's three different teams making some use of the same chassis. So on that note, I'd like to start a campaign to bring back the EJ12. Any suggestions on where I could, or should, start that rumour? lol

[xpensive]

If the Toyota comes with a dossier (Like the F2007 Stepneygate) and the moulds, I would think that it would be worth buying, and running the car all year in 2010 without updates, so you could use it as the platform for the 2011 car with a years worth of understanding, ala Super Aguri.

PS: Any chance that Super Aguri might pick up Toyota team? THAT would be great, especially with 2 Japanese drivers on the market that can bring personal sponsorship...

To properly understand a complicated piece of engineering, it is often not enough to know the end result of that particular development sequence. In order to know in which direction to advance, it's desireable to know where you're coming from.

Like John Barnard xpressed it "A Formula One design is just a snapshot in time."

[pgj]

Isn't Sauber looking to use IP from BMW?

I thought that Toyota's jigs and tools might be a good starting point for McLaren, or any other new F1 engine supplier, to start from.

Anyone buying the Toyota chassis IP would be taking quite a short-cut.

[Conceptual]

If the Toyota comes with a dossier (Like the F2007 Stepneygate) and the moulds, I would think that it would be worth buying, and running the car all year in 2010 without updates, so you could use it as the platform for the 2011 car with a years worth of understanding, ala Super Aguri.

PS: Any chance that Super Aguri might pick up Toyota team? THAT would be great, especially with 2 Japanese drivers on the market that can bring personal sponsorship...

To properly understand a complicated piece of engineering, it is often not enough to know the end result of that particular development sequence. In order to know in which direction to advance, it's desireable to know where you're coming from.

Like John Barnard xpressed it "A Formula One design is just a snapshot in time."

So, maybe they get "Tech Support" with the IP.

Any way that you look at it, I am sure that if Toyota were to sell their IP, they would have some way of delivering it in a usable fashion... Or else it wouldn't ever sell...

There just isn't enough details out there yet, just speculation based upon what people think is intelligent.

Not all of it is, and the speculation is worth less than the "snapshot" that you mentioned...

PS: If USF1 were to buy the IP, and wedge a Cosworth into it, they really don't need to understand it to race it for 2010. They can run it all year with ZERO updating, and just LEARN. Couple that with some wind-tunnel testing, and maybe a mid-season update with proper integration with the Cossie engine, and you may just have a good platform for 2011.

I would do it that way, and try to snipe some of the section leaders from Toyota as well...

But then again, maybe that is why I'm not in F1...

[xpensive]

I think your PS would be an honest and very humble way of approaching the situation for a team like USF1, in particular if they could bring some key-people with it. But that would be throwing the US-thing out the window, wouldn't it?

Besides, it's perhaps a little late for that now?

[dp35]

If USF1 were to buy the IP, and wedge a Cosworth into it, they really don't need to understand it to race it for 2010. They can run it all year with ZERO updating, and just LEARN. Couple that with some wind-tunnel testing, and maybe a mid-season update with proper integration with the Cossie engine, and you may just have a good platform for 2011.

I would do it that way, and try to snipe some of the section leaders from Toyota as well...

I agree. Altough this tactic might not result in the design reaching its max potential, it would result in USF1 reaching a higher level than they could on their own. Under this scenario USF1 would have a good change of being the best of the new teams, which will be a race of its own.

I think your PS would be an honest and very humble way of approaching the situation for a team like USF1, in particular if they could bring some key-people with it. But that would be throwing the US-thing out the window, wouldn't it?

Besides, it's perhaps a little late for that now?

As a US fan I'd rather see USF1 use the Toyota design & be somewhat competitive than stick with their own designs & be an embarassment. They've already said there will be no US drivers in 2010, so who cares if the car's initial design was done in Germany for a Japanese company? Not me.

Also, since they have no drivers announced, and they've already stated that they won't have any American drivers, seems like Kobiyashi would be a good fit. More negotiating leverage and a win-win.

Too late? Yes and no. It doesn't seem like USF1 is as far along with their own design as the others, which would make them the only likely buyer, thus driving the price down. If the rumors are correct, perhaps USF1 would be better off to start over now with a Toyota design than to continue with their own.

[xpensive]

I believe you got your quotes a bit mixed up there, dp? But anyway, in the case og USF1, the way I understand things their entire business-idea as well as financing and approach to sponsors is "Made in the US", isn't it?

[dp35]

But anyway, in the case og USF1, the way I understand things their entire business-idea as well as financing and approach to sponsors is "Made in the US", isn't it?

It started out that way, but has deviated. At first they said they would have 2 American drivers in 2010, which seemed extremely optimistic even to those of us that would like to believe it. The idea of having a European shop was discussed from the start, so that's not new. I don't remember them saying that everything would be made in the US, just that it would be a US based team with American drivers.

If (IF) this team is a success, I doubt any American fans will care if the car was originally a German-Japanese design.

[nacho]

In my opinion it would be a huge chance for a new teams to buy the designs and other data, there would be a lot of engineers who have worked with the car available too.

This year's Toyota has been the fastest car on the track a few times.

[Conceptual]

Just to be ahead of the new teams/sauber/STR would give enough constructor point money to justify the purchase price, as well as the ability to refine for 2011 with a 2nd gen car as their basis.

If USF1 isnt at least LOOKING at it, I would seriously doubt their credibility to achieve anything in F1 over the next 5 years...

[xpensive]

Just last week there was an interview published with Windsor, when he repeated that USF1 will have the first US-built F1 car since Dan Gurney's 1967 Eagle, while even that car was designed by an Englishman (Len Terry) and had a British engine (Weslake).

In 1995, when Briatore and Walkinshaw owned the Ligier team, they ran an obviously identical chassis as Benetton, while the French team had Mugen engines as opposed to the motherteam's Renaults.

The results were decent, but no match for the Benetton, which won the WDC.

[pipex]

Found this interesting article about the cost of a F1 car design IP, but it's in french . The cost seems reasonable for a small team (a sponsor could finance it) i think...

With google translator i got this:

Yesterday the rumor of the will of Toyota plans to sell his TF110 in third, launched a question: how much does it cost to sell plans for a F1?
In 2002, the collapse of Prost GP offers the team to the vultures. Tom Walkinshaw and Charles Nickerson bought from the liquidator, Mr. Como Rogeau, intellectual property Prost AP04 and AP05 mostly still in the wind tunnel and form a plan. The investment of 2.586 million euros seems minimal.But give an indication.
This year, the Scuderia Toro Rosso bought from Red Bull Technology in terms of RB5 and its developments. Unlike years before, had more STR car key in hand, or almost, but had to build its own parts. The total investment for the small Italian team is approximately 8 million euros.
For the design of a Formula 1 car, investment (study, wind etc ...) is 10 or 12 million euros. The purchase of the intellectual property of a car has already passed its stage of development cost as an engine for the year. Either 5 or 6 million euros.
Rest well then build and develop the car over the year. But the base is already done, as demonstrated Brawn GP this year.

Source: http://www.tomorrownewsf1.com/f1-le-pri ... place-9094