2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[organic]

Now today we hear Horner wants Sainz to replace Perez wowee

https://formu1a.uno/it/red-bull-horner- ... io-di-max/

***

Unless Horner makes it perfectly clear to Carlos he's there to assist Max and pick up the remaining points, sparks are going to fly. On one hand, team needs to be covered in case Max does leave for 26 or 27 season, on the other hand - introducing Sainz who does not want to serve anyone and granting him equal treatment will be a finger in the eye to Max. I don't see Sainz joining unless contractually guaranteed equal treatment and no team orders.

Very tricky pairing in a car that will win both 2025 championships.

I think Sainz would join without contractual equal treatment to be honest. What other chance do you get to move to the fastest car which is likely to win both championships immediately? And with the incumbent champion possibly to step away from the team shortly after.. it's a golden opportunity I can't see him putting his foot down over the more minor details.

[Vanja #66]

I think Sainz would join without contractual equal treatment to be honest. What other chance do you get to move to the fastest car which is likely to win both championships immediately? And with the incumbent champion possibly to step away from the team shortly after.. it's a golden opportunity I can't see him putting his foot down over the more minor details.

I understand and kind of agree 49%, but my feeling is Sainz now wants to be in the best possible team where he will be treated equally of be the clear number 1. Just that, he had equal treatment in Ferrari entering with 2-3 podiums to his name, why should he settle for less now that he's at least 3-time winner?

It's very interesting to see what the next 5 years will look like for him, I wish him the best deal he can get.

[Seanspeed]

I doubt Max would demand any kind no.1 treatment. He's simply good enough to earn it by himself.

Like, I think people forget that Perez was pretty well rated before he went up against Max. Plus Max pretty much had the measure of Sainz even when he was just 17 years old in his second year of car racing, so I think he'd be fine.

[organic]

I think Sainz would join without contractual equal treatment to be honest. What other chance do you get to move to the fastest car which is likely to win both championships immediately? And with the incumbent champion possibly to step away from the team shortly after.. it's a golden opportunity I can't see him putting his foot down over the more minor details.

I understand and kind of agree 49%, but my feeling is Sainz now wants to be in the best possible team where he will be treated equally of be the clear number 1. Just that, he had equal treatment in Ferrari entering with 2-3 podiums to his name, why should he settle for less now that he's at least 3-time winner?

It's very interesting to see what the next 5 years will look like for him, I wish him the best deal he can get.

Yes I agree he would really desire to be equal #1 wherever he goes. It is difficult to do much without this. But I would also say what other choice does Sainz have? Sauber for 2025 is really unappealing, and Merc simply want a seatwarmer before Antonelli or Max

It was equal treatment at Ferrari with a (at the time) 2 time race winner Leclerc (who was entering his 3rd season at ferrari and 4th in F1) whilst Sainz himself was more experienced. I feel that's a different situation to Sainz having 3 race wins yet demanding equal treatment to Verstappen who has won 58 races and 3 championships after 10 years in F1 and 9 years with RBR.

[Sieper]

He got equal treatment at Toro Rosso already.

[f1isgood]

Red Bull should sign Sainz to cover the possibility of Max leaving.

If they were to re-sign Perez, a sudden Verstappen departure could leave them with their pants down and no top drivers available. Sainz is reasonably quick and could win championships with the right machinery.

Even if signing Sainz Sr is potentially starting a fire in the garage, it's probably worth it with the uncertainty around Verstappen

Red Bull will be fine. They are winning everything since 2022 without Max anyways. Red Bull won't run short of top drivers should Max leave. I can see Lando move to Red Bull if Max leaves. Sainz has a past and that is why they haven't already signed.

Without Max there, Leclerc would have been champion on 2022. Also in 2023, only reason Perez was second was because pretty much all the other teams had horrible seasons, and kept taking points off one another.

That fundamentally assumes Red Bull have no one more competent than Perez in the other car though. That is a false assumption to begin with. And even then I would in fact say that Perez's performances are not completely independent of Max's. He is under a different kind of pressure which would otherwise not exist if there was a weaker driver next to him.

[f1isgood]

And if we tolerated back room cover-ups "behind closed doors" we would never know the full story. But the evidence leaked and we could form our own opinions.

What an incredible statement. Jos' history has nothing to do with the controversy at hand, Horner's actions are foundational to the controversy but it "doesn't matter what Horner has or hasn't done". I understand that it's easier to try to turn this into a debate about Jos' character as opposed to actually defending Horner, but it's not a real argument, it's deflection.

Jos indeed doesn't have anything to do with the controversy at hand, except making the situation more toxic and worse by running his mouth in the media. I get it that many of you are more Verstappen fans than Red Bull fans but don't ignore the fact that Jos Verstappen is a pos himself.

Jos is nothing but a deflection for people who don't want to hold Horner responsible for his actions. We all know Jos' history, but it has nothing to do with this.

I would argue the opposite: People who have someone decided that Horner has to go have decided that Jos is a saint. Indeed, you conveniently fail to address that Jos isn't helping the situation. Maybe it's a cultural thing but from where I am from, running your mouth in the media is not conducive. I think at this point we should agree to simply disagree as you will ignore some obvious issues with Jos' behavior. No one is not wanting to hold Horner responsible for his actions. In fact it's the opposite: Horner has had a trial by media after being cleared internally, and is never recovering from this anyways. I will wait for the facts since last I learnt the accuser is going to trial. Sooner they go the better.

[venkyhere]

The fastest cars are the ones that are jittery and nervous, with a razor sharp front and nervous rear. The driver has to manipulate the car rather than react to it. Any car that isn't setup this way -> every 0.001 of laptime from the engineered limit can't be extracted, something is left on the table.

The only people I have seen do justice to cars setup this way, are Schumacher and Verstappen. No, not Lewis, he needs a bit of understeer to tame the rear. LeClerc is the closest next. Maybe there were drivers before (that's why the "I have seen" in the sentence above) who were masters at such a setup, but I can't tell anything from footage because pre-1995 was about active suspensions, ABS, Traction control etc.

With this info in mind, the only way Sainz going to Redbull will make sense, is only if he knows Max wont be at RedBull from the end of 2026 (the realistic approach for Max is to wait and see for 1 yr of new rules as to how the RedBull is, and then decide) because as long as Max is the other driver, the car is always going to be built as a nervous being.

Because that's where laptime comes from. If Max remains, then no matter what clauses Sainz puts into his contract, there is no way he is going to beat Max in race conditions (not just quali). It's a question of who can consistently tame a wild horse, lap after lap, since any amount of domestication is going to slow it down. Just ask all of Max's ex and current teammates, why they can't drive his setup and have to dial in some understeer, and as a result sacrifice laptime.

[gh0stadian]

I think people forget that Perez was pretty well rated before he went up against Max.

I mean he wasn t bad driver, but he definitely wasn t in the same class as Lando, George, Charles. More like hulkenberg, albon, ....

[Dunlay]

I doubt Max would demand any kind no.1 treatment. He's simply good enough to earn it by himself.

Like, I think people forget that Perez was pretty well rated before he went up against Max. Plus Max pretty much had the measure of Sainz even when he was just 17 years old in his second year of car racing, so I think he'd be fine.

Perez didn't even have a contract and sure shot thrown out in favor of Seb in 2020. His Bahrain win and the struggling Albon suddenly opened a chance for him after they ran out of Red Bull junior options.

[organic]

I doubt Max would demand any kind no.1 treatment. He's simply good enough to earn it by himself.

Like, I think people forget that Perez was pretty well rated before he went up against Max. Plus Max pretty much had the measure of Sainz even when he was just 17 years old in his second year of car racing, so I think he'd be fine.

Perez didn't even have a contract and sure shot thrown out in favor of Seb in 2020. His Bahrain win and the struggling Albon suddenly opened a chance for him.

Perez was voted in the top 5 drivers of 2020 by team principals, and if you look at the previous 10 years he's in pretty good company.

At the time it was not really understood just how weak Stroll was or perhaps how good the RP20 was; even if it was erroneous, Perez was rated highly at that point. And anyway, Vettel fared much worse than Perez H2H against Stroll so we can conclude that Perez being thrown out for Vettel was a mistake in terms of results.

[Seanspeed]

I think people forget that Perez was pretty well rated before he went up against Max.

I mean he wasn t bad driver, but he definitely wasn t in the same class as Lando, George, Charles. More like hulkenberg, albon, ....

Neither is Sainz. Which is my point. An elite talent like Max is not going to be afraid of Sainz to the degree that he'll demand any kind of no.1 status.

[Seanspeed]

The fastest cars are the ones that are jittery and nervous, with a razor sharp front and nervous rear. The driver has to manipulate the car rather than react to it. Any car that isn't setup this way -> every 0.001 of laptime from the engineered limit can't be extracted, something is left on the table.

The only people I have seen do justice to cars setup this way, are Schumacher and Verstappen. No, not Lewis, he needs a bit of understeer to tame the rear. LeClerc is the closest next. Maybe there were drivers before (that's why the "I have seen" in the sentence above) who were masters at such a setup, but I can't tell anything from footage because pre-1995 was about active suspensions, ABS, Traction control etc.

With this info in mind, the only way Sainz going to Redbull will make sense, is only if he knows Max wont be at RedBull from the end of 2026 (the realistic approach for Max is to wait and see for 1 yr of new rules as to how the RedBull is, and then decide) because as long as Max is the other driver, the car is always going to be built as a nervous being.

Because that's where laptime comes from. If Max remains, then no matter what clauses Sainz puts into his contract, there is no way he is going to beat Max in race conditions (not just quali). It's a question of who can consistently tame a wild horse, lap after lap, since any amount of domestication is going to slow it down. Just ask all of Max's ex and current teammates, why they can't drive his setup and have to dial in some understeer, and as a result sacrifice laptime.

The fastest cars are not always nervous at all. The fastest car is simply the one that gets around the track the quickest, however that is achieved. Usually this just means the best aero package + competitive engine.

It's an especially strange claim specifically when the Red Bull cars in particular have not been super reactive cars in the past few years, and lean more towards understeer with a super stable and predictable aerodynamic balance.

Not to mention that being able to handle oversteer-y cars was actually considered one of Lewis' biggest strengths. Just because the Mercs he had in their more dominating era weren't like this(which again goes against your other claim of this being fastest) doesn't mean it's cuz Lewis demanded it or couldn't handle things otherwise.

Generally, cars are not built for specific drivers, and I doubt designers and engineers could really design a car with such specific characteristics to only suit one driver even if they wanted to. It's true some drivers can cope with a less balanced/more nervous car better than others, but this does not mean engineers consider this a desirable trait to bake into the car dynamics and performance. It's almost always going to be the opposite, where they are trying to make a car that is easier and more predictable to drive, and then the drivers/team can play with setup and whatnot to suit the situation and preferences.

[Sieper]

Yes. Just look at how these current regs car go through corners. It is so different than before. Another race class.

[Just_a_fan]

The fastest cars are the ones that are jittery and nervous, with a razor sharp front and nervous rear. The driver has to manipulate the car rather than react to it. Any car that isn't setup this way -> every 0.001 of laptime from the engineered limit can't be extracted, something is left on the table.

[Max fan stuff...]

Er, no, that's simply not true at all.