Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[AR3-GP]

You can use pressure sensors on the test benches, but you are not allowed to have them at the track. There's an exception for new PU manufacturers during the pre-season (RB and Audi).

[mzso]

You can use pressure sensors on the test benches, but you are not allowed to have them at the track. There's an exception for new PU manufacturers during the pre-season (RB and Audi).

https://i.postimg.cc/bY9bpLdT/image.png

So no pressure and temperature sensors. That pretty much rules out real time monitoring as proposed before. And it's even illegal to infer these values.
Not that the FIA wording of "compliance with the compression ratio limit must be demonstrated not only at ambient conditions, but also at a representative operating temperature of 130°C." suggested such. I always thought that means heating it up to 130C and measure the compression ratio on a test rig.
Honestly from the first this test felt like a pretense. Temperatures go much higher than that on the cylinder walls and pistons, don't they? Surely, if a mini chamber exists it closes up near operating temperature.

In that Pat Symonds presentation, he is asked if "they" are using pressure sensors and he says yes they are.

Could mean anything. Such as a confirmation that such sensors are used at all. Doesn't mean everyone.

[AR3-GP]

Not that the FIA wording of "compliance with the compression ratio limit must be demonstrated not only at ambient conditions, but also at a representative operating temperature of 130°C." suggested such. I always thought that means heating it up to 130C and measure the compression ratio on a test rig.
Honestly from the first this test felt like a pretense. Temperatures go much higher than that on the cylinder walls and pistons, don't they? Surely, if a mini chamber exists it closes up near operating temperature.

Yes the new test is a waste of time. Its political theater.

[diffuser]

You can use pressure sensors on the test benches, but you are not allowed to have them at the track. There's an exception for new PU manufacturers during the pre-season (RB and Audi).

https://i.postimg.cc/bY9bpLdT/image.png

So pressure and temperature sensors. That pretty much rules out real time monitoring as proposed before. And it's even illegal to infer these values.
Not that the FIA wording of "compliance with the compression ratio limit must be demonstrated not only at ambient conditions, but also at a representative operating temperature of 130°C." suggested such. I always thought that means heating it up to 130C and measure the compression ratio on a test rig.
Honestly from the first this test felt like a pretense. Temperatures go much higher than that on the cylinder walls and pistons, don't they? Surely, if a mini chamber exists it closes up near operating temperature.

In that Pat Symonds presentation, he is asked if "they" are using pressure sensors and he says yes they are.

Could mean anything. Such as a confirmation that such sensors are used at all. Doesn't mean everyone.

No it doesn't but he could have used "some are" or "most are" but he chose to use "they are" in referencing the PU manufactures. It could be that I'm just reading too much in those words....

[diffuser]

Not that the FIA wording of "compliance with the compression ratio limit must be demonstrated not only at ambient conditions, but also at a representative operating temperature of 130°C." suggested such. I always thought that means heating it up to 130C and measure the compression ratio on a test rig.
Honestly from the first this test felt like a pretense. Temperatures go much higher than that on the cylinder walls and pistons, don't they? Surely, if a mini chamber exists it closes up near operating temperature.

Yes the new test is a waste of time. Its political theater.

It always comes down heating what up to 130C ? If we're talking a combustion chamber, it's cold, if we're talking a crankshaft or connecting rod we're talking too hot. I thought it meant the coolant temperature.

I don't believe it's political theater. The other PU manufactures would not allow that. I believe that they just didn't know "the how" yet at the time they said that and why it'll take till June to implement it. From a manufactures point of view, changing a head gasket thickness would drop the CR. So you would need a Homolagation change.

[AR3-GP]

It always comes down heating what up to 130C ? If we're talking a combustion chamber, it's cold, if we're talking a crankshaft or connecting rod we're talking too hot. I thought it meant the coolant temperature.

I don't believe it's political theater. The other PU manufactures would not allow that. I believe that they just didn't know "the how" yet at the time they said that and why it'll take till June to implement it. From a manufactures point of view, changing a head gasket thickness would drop the CR. So you would need a Homolagation change.

It is theater. Whether it's coolant or oil, you won't reproduce the quasi-equilibrium thermal distribution of a running ICE by simply circulating warm oil and coolant. It's a terrible misunderstanding of how things work.

Coolant extracts heat from an engine due to the temperature difference between the coolant and the surrounding metallic surfaces. The heat that raises the temperature of the metal above that of the coolant comes from combustion. If there is no combustion, the test is theater.

[diffuser]

It always comes down heating what up to 130C ? If we're talking a combustion chamber, it's cold, if we're talking a crankshaft or connecting rod we're talking too hot. I thought it meant the coolant temperature.

I don't believe it's political theater. The other PU manufactures would not allow that. I believe that they just didn't know "the how" yet at the time they said that and why it'll take till June to implement it. From a manufactures point of view, changing a head gasket thickness would drop the CR. So you would need a Homolagation change.

It is theather. Whether it's coolant or oil, you won't reproduce the quasi-equilibrium thermal distribution of a running ICE by simply circulating warm oil and coolant. It's a terrible misunderstanding of how things work.

Coolant extracts heat from an engine due to the temperature difference between the coolant and the surrounding metallic surfaces. The heat that raises the temperature of the metal above that of the coolant comes from combustion. If there is no combustion, the test is theater.

Yeah, I think they're gonna be testing live ...



BTW that whole part in the regs about the "40db above 1khz" means they full expect pressure sensors to be in the heads anyways but the imposed sensing limit makes it useless for measuring pressure but they can still be used to measure other stuff below the limit.

[Farnborough]

It always comes down heating what up to 130C ? If we're talking a combustion chamber, it's cold, if we're talking a crankshaft or connecting rod we're talking too hot. I thought it meant the coolant temperature.

I don't believe it's political theater. The other PU manufactures would not allow that. I believe that they just didn't know "the how" yet at the time they said that and why it'll take till June to implement it. From a manufactures point of view, changing a head gasket thickness would drop the CR. So you would need a Homolagation change.

It is theather. Whether it's coolant or oil, you won't reproduce the quasi-equilibrium thermal distribution of a running ICE by simply circulating warm oil and coolant. It's a terrible misunderstanding of how things work.

Coolant extracts heat from an engine due to the temperature difference between the coolant and the surrounding metallic surfaces. The heat that raises the temperature of the metal above that of the coolant comes from combustion. If there is no combustion, the test is theater.

Yeah, I think they're gonna be testing live ...



BTW that whole part in the regs about the "40db above 1khz" means they full expect pressure sensors to be in the heads anyways but the imposed sensing limit makes it useless for measuring pressure but they can still be used to measure other stuff below the limit.

I agree.

It just seems a public method of dealing with this and trying to avoid embarrassment all round.

TW in interview stated that they'd need to make modifications, if those have been agreed by the other PU manufacturers under a "black cloak" then the theatre can "verify" that all is OK and no advantage will continue to be had.

Publicity is uppermost, dealing with it to not bring protest etc is what goes on behind closed doors.

[Hoffman900]

FYI: the manufacturers have to submit all the CAD drawings, including material, AND A reference PU that can be dissasembled to the FIA. This whole extra chamber idea is hogwash and would be blatently obvious and very clearly not allowed.

A connecting rod expansing some? Sure, but it’s not going to show you at 120* C when running temps are higher and there is no forces acting on the rod.

The FIA has been trying to get rid of these PU’s running pressure sensors in every cylinder, anytime the engine is running on a race weekend. The 2014-2025 PU’s were so on the edge they couldn’t run like they did without them to manage knock. A lot of race series ban them outside development and testing for actual race weekends. PU builders use them to develope and tune and then “lock in” the tune for the weekend. The sensors are very expensive and burn up quick.

PS: I’ve even shared a paper on how Ferrari’s F1 program uses them to detect knock and the strategies in fueling to control it before on the previous PU’s, but it got zero interest because people don’t seem to be actually into technical discussion here.

[Rodak]

...because people don’t seem to be actually into technical discussion here.

Yep. It's getting old seeing the same sort of posts lacking technical understanding again and again and again.....

[mzso]

It always comes down heating what up to 130C ? If we're talking a combustion chamber, it's cold, if we're talking a crankshaft or connecting rod we're talking too hot. I thought it meant the coolant temperature.

By putting the whole thing in an "oven", and rotating the crankshaft to measure the difference. I would guess.

Yeah, I think they're gonna be testing live ...

Without the necessary sensors, how? Drilling a hole in the cylinder for a probe??

[mzso]

FYI: the manufacturers have to submit all the CAD drawings, including material, AND A reference PU that can be dissasembled to the FIA. This whole extra chamber idea is hogwash and would be blatently obvious and very clearly not allowed.

Obvious, sure, but but whether it's allowed or not is much debated.

A connecting rod expansing some? Sure, but it’s not going to show you at 120* C when running temps are higher and there is no forces acting on the rod.

In either case the test seems to be futile.

[Farnborough]

FYI: the manufacturers have to submit all the CAD drawings, including material, AND A reference PU that can be dissasembled to the FIA. This whole extra chamber idea is hogwash and would be blatently obvious and very clearly not allowed.

Obvious, sure, but but whether it's allowed or not is much debated.

A connecting rod expansing some? Sure, but it’s not going to show you at 120* C when running temps are higher and there is no forces acting on the rod.

In either case the test seems to be futile.

Driving the conjecture is the secrecy around the facts. That's naive in current availability of scrutiny from anyone with interest in F1 to any real degree.
Those in control may have motive, but with no real means to fully obscure the presence of technical imbalance, which they've tried to specifically exclude in rules set.

The majority of PU manufacturers understand that there's a difference, quantified and known by FIA, Mercedes also acknowledge this too, by the statement TW has made in accepting they have to modify their PU this season. That's not smoke and mirrors, it exists and there's accord on how they move forward, it seems by all PU interests.

What's in there is being held out of public view, whatever method they've used in design of MB PU.

[Sasha]

The test will be futile.
The other manufacturers have a pretty good idea what MB is doing but do not know the how.
Welcome to the new world of Nano Processes and 3D Printing Manufacturing.

[diffuser]

It always comes down heating what up to 130C ? If we're talking a combustion chamber, it's cold, if we're talking a crankshaft or connecting rod we're talking too hot. I thought it meant the coolant temperature.

By putting the whole thing in an "oven", and rotating the crankshaft to measure the difference. I would guess.

Yeah, I think they're gonna be testing live ...

Without the necessary sensors, how? Drilling a hole in the cylinder for a probe??

I should've probably said "that's what I hope". I'm also hoping that the Sensors are actually there, just that they made the frequency required to verify pressure illegal. So then it's just a matter allowing it only for the FIA.