Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric

[63l8qrrfy6]

OK, this is massively off topic, but I am going to ask for a link to that 1C from ICEs if you have it. The heat island effect is well known, but that would suggest that ICEs contribute most of the heat. And (almost) all energy consumption goes eventually to heat, so it would imply that ICEs account for most of the energy consumption in cities...

I'll split this to a new thread if it drags along.

P.S. your degree is probably Fahrenheit, isn't it? Where I come from the degrees are larger. That would explain it.

https://citymonitor.ai/horizons/electri ... cities-865

Electric cars, according to research by scientists from Michigan State University, produce only about one fifth of this heat over the course of an average mile. When you multiply that by the number of cars on the road worldwide, that means an awful lot less heat created on roads.

If what the researchers have found is true, replacing city cars with electric ones could reduce the urban heat island effect pretty dramatically. The researchers used Beijing’s scorching 2012 summer as an example, and found that the use of electric cars could have reduced the temperature across the city by 0.94°C. This would, in turn, have reduced air conditioning usage by 14.44m kilowatt hours, and reduced daily CO2 emissions by 10,686 tonnes.

What a useless article. It even says at the beginning that battery powered cars don’t get there electric from carbon free sources most of the time but wants to claim somehow that it’s good for the environment if you ignore that the electric is gotten from dirty sources.

You have completely missed the point of the article.

[Edax]

Or open it up so that those who want to do another series can use the same base engine. F2, Lemans, indy etc but must be in a set format for F1, but not number of cylinders limited

The reason I thought of Indy was commercially the combination of running Indy and F1 is very attractive because that covers the main markets.

But yeah sharing between 2 or more series makes a lot of sense. It certainly seems to work for WTCC and WRC which share the same engine.

And the testbed function of F1 for engine development has been overblown anyway if you ask me. In the 90’s I worked in a shop who did parts for F1 engines. I can tell you that none of the exotic materials and processes i saw passing by there ever made their way to a commercial vehicle.

Better go for a solution that encourages good competition and ensures a full grid, than trying to pretend to solve the world’s problems.

I think it would mean all the series coming together and getting their ducks in a row at the same time.

For instance, F3 a 4 or 6 cyl engine. F2 the same engine but with charging, F1 stick what you like on it and electric machine.
If they get sports, Lemans and a couple of American or Asian series on board wit different options on the same base, the cost would be fractions of what it is now and stil have graduated steps.

Manufactures or privateers could come on board at ant point from a version of the basic n/a engine on up and also opens the door to others coning on board with 'just' the turbo or regen or electric machine or battery set etc.

Ah I get it now. Make it some sort of a modular concept.

Interesting thought. I guess that is what Mechachrome tried to do, by converting their F2 V6 engine for LMP1 (ginetta).

That was not very successful if I recall correctly. But it does seem that especially these independent engine shops and race teams are greatly helped by commonality between the engine formula’s.

[RedNEO]

https://citymonitor.ai/horizons/electri ... cities-865

What a useless article. It even says at the beginning that battery powered cars don’t get there electric from carbon free sources most of the time but wants to claim somehow that it’s good for the environment if you ignore that the electric is gotten from dirty sources.

You have completely missed the point of the article.

That electric cars could help cool down the cities? Haha no I haven’t missed the point at all. It’s just a ridiculous notion when the irony is they actually achieve the opposite on a larger scale.

[coaster]

The problem with electric only is it plays into the hands of the best battery manufacturer - tesla with its purchase of maxwell technology patents.
This assures a monopoly to one technology partner, the biofuel approach keeps 5 or so possible automobile manufacturers at the table rather than a reboot of formula e.

[Jolle]

For batteries to be a better alternative to developing the ICE, they would have to weigh half as much, have twice as much power and charge in half the time, for half the cost of 2015 commercial level batteries. Since then in 5 years we've done maybe 10% of those 3 goals, given diminishing returns, limits of current battery chemistry, we can probably do 30% in 15-20 years. There would have to be a chemistry or manufacturing breakthrough to accelerate that time frame, otherwise the ICE still has another 50 years, easy.

Battery-electric cars are already competing with ICE in every category eg

Porsche Taycan
Mercedes EQC
Tesla Model 3
Tesla Roadster (Mk2)

While they can certainly improve in they ways you mention - they don't HAVE TO.

They only need to get cheaper.

Only one of those cars is even close to attainable by an average person, and if they live in a building and don't have a garage, they better invest in a hecking long extension cable.

I think it’s very dependent in what kind of country you live in. Here in The Netherlands public charging ports (where you park your car for the night if you don’t have your own driveway) are getting electrified in a way that keeps ahead of the number of electric vehicles on the road. They are more common then Starbucks in New York City. Also, the first second gen of electric “normal people” cars are currently being rolled out in Europe, like the VW ID3 and 4 (after the eGolf and eEp). So, it looks like Europe at least will be ready for an all electric future within the next decade.

[NL_Fer]

So how do these E-fuels work with future emission laws?

The Euro 7 seems to look very strict. Some suspect that euro 7 will make combustion engines so expensive, an EV can be very price competitive . Also with 350kw DC quickchargers, charging is reduced to less than 10 minutes.

https://www.transportenvironment.org/si ... trucks.pdf

1. Set the EU vehicle emission limits to the lowest level globally and define a clear roadmap to zero.
2. Regulate all pollutants that are harmful to public health and the environment.
3. Improve testing, approval and certification of vehicles to make sure emission limits apply under all possible driving conditions.

[Ferry]

I think it’s very dependent in what kind of country you live in. Here in The Netherlands public charging ports (where you park your car for the night if you don’t have your own driveway) are getting electrified in a way that keeps ahead of the number of electric vehicles on the road.

We built the cities, we built the roads, we built the electric grid, we built the cars. But charging points are impossible? C'mon. Of course it's doable. I live in Norway, and it's the same here. More charging points every day. Firstly, about 80% of the population in Norway can charge at home. In addition we can charge at the shopping center, at work, at the gym. Ikea has a lot of charging points. The first gas stations have started to exchange pumps for chargers. Fuel sales are declining. Soon some gas stations will go bankrupt. Hybrids and BEVs are forcing that.

[Big Tea]

There are going to be two viewpoints here. Those who live in cities and those who live in, well the rest of the world.
There is little alternative to getting cities geared up, but I am afraid the rest will probably still wait in 10 years


I have looked at the maps, and looked for figures in UK. I see a headline - More chargers than fuel ststions in UK

)There are 9,300 electric vehicle (EV) charging locations across the UK, compared to 8,400 fuel stations.)

But I can not find figures stating how many of theses are public, and if I look at a map it is easy to see where the public ones are, in London area.

Also, a car is in a fuel station for 5 min or so at a charging point for 4 hrs plus, even when they turn up promptly or it could be all day

[Tommy Cookers]

.... If what the researchers have found is true, replacing city cars with electric ones could reduce the urban heat island effect pretty dramatically. The researchers used Beijing’s scorching 2012 summer as an example, and found that the use of electric cars could have reduced the temperature across the city by 0.94°C. This would, in turn, have reduced air conditioning usage by 14.44m kilowatt hours, and reduced daily CO2 emissions by 10,686 tonnes.

wouldn't replacing city (ICE) cars with hybrid ones have 95% of the above advantage ?
(with less of the disadvantages)

[Big Tea]

.... If what the researchers have found is true, replacing city cars with electric ones could reduce the urban heat island effect pretty dramatically. The researchers used Beijing’s scorching 2012 summer as an example, and found that the use of electric cars could have reduced the temperature across the city by 0.94°C. This would, in turn, have reduced air conditioning usage by 14.44m kilowatt hours, and reduced daily CO2 emissions by 10,686 tonnes.

wouldn't replacing city (ICE) cars with hybrid ones have 95% of the above advantage ?
(with less of the disadvantages)

I know this guy is not flavour of the month with many, I did not like him when he was microsoft, but do now, and it is only a short vid. Imagine his scenario with Tokyo if all the vehicles were electric. He makes many good points to consider, but does not seem to offer an alternative



It deals with energy production and storage, but what if we had to charge vehicles too?

[gruntguru]

There are green alternatives for all the industries Gates mentioned - hydrogen for steel making etc. Scale is another matter - it will take time. Aviation is perhaps the most difficult. Sustainable and biofuels are the only short term answer for that industry.

[Big Tea]

There are green alternatives for all the industries Gates mentioned - hydrogen for steel making etc. Scale is another matter - it will take time. Aviation is perhaps the most difficult. Sustainable and biofuels are the only short term answer for that industry.

I think that is what he is trying to put over. (apart from cost and funding) things are taken in isolation and compered with something that is fictional. Or at least notional

[Jolle]

There are going to be two viewpoints here. Those who live in cities and those who live in, well the rest of the world.
There is little alternative to getting cities geared up, but I am afraid the rest will probably still wait in 10 years


I have looked at the maps, and looked for figures in UK. I see a headline - More chargers than fuel ststions in UK

)There are 9,300 electric vehicle (EV) charging locations across the UK, compared to 8,400 fuel stations.)

But I can not find figures stating how many of theses are public, and if I look at a map it is easy to see where the public ones are, in London area.

Also, a car is in a fuel station for 5 min or so at a charging point for 4 hrs plus, even when they turn up promptly or it could be all day

I guess when you live outside a small city, most people have a driveway. Don’t know how it is in the UK, but here you’ll get a good plan from an energy company to have a decent home charging port next to your car.
I live in a fairly small town of 100.000 people, charging ports everywhere. Nobody has to mess with extension cords (not for cars, not for electric mopeds or even electric bicycles)

[coaster]

Lets face it, formula e is slow and has poor crowd attendance. If full electric is to work out then the shackles must off, such as;
1/ overpowered chassis.
2/ unlimited refueling (change batteries).
3/ no development freeze, an arms war.

Then you will see the best, the ultimate, not a watered down and filtered open wheel parade such as the current e class.

Big oil should then shift its focus to polymers, paints and lubricants and align to the new status quo, but really, who am i kidding here?
Big oil is the main game, the big time in economic power and influence.
Now surrender all of this please big oil, sit in the corner, be quiet.
Not gonna happen.

[Jolle]

Lets face it, formula e is slow and has poor crowd attendance. If full electric is to work out then the shackles must off, such as;
1/ overpowered chassis.
2/ unlimited refueling (change batteries).
3/ no development freeze, an arms war.

Then you will see the best, the ultimate, not a watered down and filtered open wheel parade such as the current e class.

Big oil should then shift its focus to polymers, paints and lubricants and align to the new status quo, but really, who am i kidding here?
Big oil is the main game, the big time in economic power and influence.
Now surrender all of this please big oil, sit in the corner, be quiet.
Not gonna happen.

Formula E is a spec series marketing trick. It’s not that Formula 1 should or can transition to electric power within the next two four years, but it can broaden the use of hybrid and recovery systems so much that the ICE doesn’t play a dominant factor anymore. Better software for front axle regen, bigger and faster batteries (they are still using the 2014 weight limit), larger and longer deployment. Much to shift around.