[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[genarro]

I don't get this "copy" argument, people copy ideas in F1 all the time, sometimes almost exactly. Designers like Newey stand in front of rival cars with notepads. Teams hire photographers to get other cars secrets

Ideas on the most efficient shapes converge over time until the next set of regulations. So they have done it more than anyone ever before, yes, but they haven't actually done anything different to what people have done during every season of F1. People copy and nobody drew a line to say you can't copy too much, because you can't do it reliably I don't think. The outcome is too subjective.

It's massively irritating that they have got ahead of us but it is what it is. We can't just throw the toys out the pram simply because a team is faster. If they copied then they will have a harder time upgrading, we can get our heads down and push on.

The thing is “copying” has always been a part of F1, nobody is arguing about that. The bottom line is, most don’t believe RP merely copied like the whole grid does. They believe a lot more has gone into what they’ve done. Marcin Budkowski was quite eloquent in his remarks, things that the rules don’t allow, like the brake ducts being another teams design. He believes it’s a Mercedes design.They’re not protesting the nose or bargeboards, side pods, floor etc. All those can easily be argued that they can be copied, some things can’t. Below are Carlos Sainz words.

Carlos: "I asked my engineers 'Why don't we copy Mercedes too?' and they told me it's impossible. F1 is in the detail, and it's impossible to copy those details," he said. "I believe them and I'm not going to say any more."

It will be interesting to see what comes out of it, I have read that those break ducts could be copied but perhaps I read wrong. If people can't really see how they are designed inside then how do Renault have a case to say that RP took their design from Merc, they wouldn't be able to tell for the same reason. I might be naive but it doesn't add up to me.

Do I feel that they have broken the spirit of the rules? Part of me finds it hard to believe that Toto would let his team and the huge Merc brand to which he is beholden get embroiled into a scandal like this by giving away designs.

Have they bought designs from impoverished Merc designers? I don't know, maybe. Do we know if they hired any ex Mercedes staff with knowledge of the Merc design? Possibly and that would be both OK and quite smart if they intended to copy the Merc philosophy.

At this point I'm not prepared to assume they have been underhand, nor do I see any evidence to show that they have.

Maybe they have been underhand, but until I see evidence of that I'd rather just say well done!

Edit: So I just read about the rule on it being your own IP for the ducts and that the geometries are allegedly too close. I don't see anywhere that it says that they did more than just copy, or have designs for parts they couldn't copy, just that these parts they should not have copied. But that is different to the arguments being posted in here. They may have breached a technicality but I still don't see anything to make me feel that their overall approach is wrong or that anything naughty has happened between teams.

If they got illegal information then they should be penalised.Simple as that. McLaren and other teams spend a lot of money to develop their parts and then you have a team who is in a building phase (Which Raicing Point is) and they just get the best brakes for free, then they can focus their resources on other parts of the car than that is fraud and cheating.

As far as we are concerned (McLaren fans) we are on the up and the MC35 is a really good base to build on. lets just hope we will outdevelop RP soon and maybe even chalenge RB (although not likely)

[SiLo]

This car is super quick on low fuel, but it loses so much compared to the competition on the bigger weight. I am guessing it has something to do with the tire management, maybe they can't get enough heat into them, I am not sure. I have also spotted that they get a lot faster towards the end of the tire stint too. Like when the tires are about to run out, McLaren manages to get a lot more out of the car compared to the competition.

I hope they pinpoint what's causing this slump on race day because if they an translate their quali pace into sundays, then there are chances to take a lot of points if Albon has off-weekends (like Styria). It is also necessary in order to keep the Racing Points behind for the time being until some upgrades (which were originally planned for Silverstone if I am not mistaken) for the car. Hopefully they deliver some extra performance because at the moment the RP is faster on race trim and that's when the points are awarded.

Could it be that the Centre of Gravity is too high with a full tank?

I think they might just have to take it easy initially to get the tyre life they want?

What was the renault pace like early on, maybe they aren't as underfuelled as the other engines.

[nacho]

Does anyone here know the accuracies which can be achieve with photogrammetry? I think with exceptional optics and camera that have been calibrated to correct any errors in the image they might be very accurate. I wouldn't be surprised we would be talking about tenth or a hundreth of a millimeter.

[mwillems]

The thing is “copying” has always been a part of F1, nobody is arguing about that. The bottom line is, most don’t believe RP merely copied like the whole grid does. They believe a lot more has gone into what they’ve done. Marcin Budkowski was quite eloquent in his remarks, things that the rules don’t allow, like the brake ducts being another teams design. He believes it’s a Mercedes design.They’re not protesting the nose or bargeboards, side pods, floor etc. All those can easily be argued that they can be copied, some things can’t. Below are Carlos Sainz words.

Carlos: "I asked my engineers 'Why don't we copy Mercedes too?' and they told me it's impossible. F1 is in the detail, and it's impossible to copy those details," he said. "I believe them and I'm not going to say any more."

It will be interesting to see what comes out of it, I have read that those break ducts could be copied but perhaps I read wrong. If people can't really see how they are designed inside then how do Renault have a case to say that RP took their design from Merc, they wouldn't be able to tell for the same reason. I might be naive but it doesn't add up to me.

Do I feel that they have broken the spirit of the rules? Part of me finds it hard to believe that Toto would let his team and the huge Merc brand to which he is beholden get embroiled into a scandal like this by giving away designs.

Have they bought designs from impoverished Merc designers? I don't know, maybe. Do we know if they hired any ex Mercedes staff with knowledge of the Merc design? Possibly and that would be both OK and quite smart if they intended to copy the Merc philosophy.

At this point I'm not prepared to assume they have been underhand, nor do I see any evidence to show that they have.

Maybe they have been underhand, but until I see evidence of that I'd rather just say well done!

Edit: So I just read about the rule on it being your own IP for the ducts and that the geometries are allegedly too close. I don't see anywhere that it says that they did more than just copy, or have designs for parts they couldn't copy, just that these parts they should not have copied. But that is different to the arguments being posted in here. They may have breached a technicality but I still don't see anything to make me feel that their overall approach is wrong or that anything naughty has happened between teams.

If they got illegal information then they should be penalised.Simple as that. McLaren and other teams spend a lot of money to develop their parts and then you have a team who is in a building phase (Which Raicing Point is) and they just get the best brakes for free, then they can focus their resources on other parts of the car than that is fraud and cheating.

As far as we are concerned (McLaren fans) we are on the up and the MC35 is a really good base to build on. lets just hope we will outdevelop RP soon and maybe even chalenge RB (although not likely)

Yes but there is no evidence to suggest that they have, only that they have copied too much. I doubt that a review into the brake ducts will unveil that. I doubt that the FIA will ever be able to prove that.

[Big Tea]

Does anyone here know the accuracies which can be achieve with photographer? I think with exceptional optics and camera that have been calibrated to correct any errors in the image they might be very accurate. I wouldn't be surprised we would be talking about tenth or a hundreth of a millimeter.

If it is fixed to an identical part and has to do the same job it is going to be very similar even without copying.
Also, last year it was a legal transferable part, so if it based on their legitimate last years part, it is going to be difficult to split. The accuracy of the scan I think will depend on the resolution of the photograph. They have some very very high resolution cameras in F1

[90feet]

I don't get this "copy" argument, people copy ideas in F1 all the time, sometimes almost exactly. Designers like Newey stand in front of rival cars with notepads. Teams hire photographers to get other cars secrets

Ideas on the most efficient shapes converge over time until the next set of regulations. So they have done it more than anyone ever before, yes, but they haven't actually done anything different to what people have done during every season of F1. People copy and nobody drew a line to say you can't copy too much, because you can't do it reliably I don't think. The outcome is too subjective.

It's massively irritating that they have got ahead of us but it is what it is. We can't just throw the toys out the pram simply because a team is faster. If they copied then they will have a harder time upgrading, we can get our heads down and push on.

I don't get this attempted retort. Yes, teams copy ideas all the time. No, teams do not wholesale copy entire cars all the time. That is an obviously and objectively unique scenario and that's why people are responding to it differently. Feel about it however you want but don't lie and pretend it's a normal thing that happens all the time.

Err.... it wasn't a retort just an expression of my opinion. Opinions are subjective and therefore cant really be lies either.

In my opinion, when a precedent is set it tends to lay the course for most things that extend out from it. Copying for me is a precedent that has been set, so I have no issue with what Racing Point has done. It won't win them a title or too many fans in the long run. But I'm not too bothered about that either. In my view its a strategic masterstroke and hats off to them. I just wish it was Williams and not RP.

Is that an acceptable opinion?

Saying that you have no problem with what Racing Point have done is an opinion. Saying that copying an entire car is exactly the same as copying an individual part is not an opinion. They are objectively two different things. That's not an opinion, it's a simple statement of fact. The cancer of discourse on the internet is this idea that facts don't exist and every single thing is an "opinion" that's up for debate. Please, we don't need to go down that road.

[dans79]

Does anyone here know the accuracies which can be achieve with photogrammetry? I think with exceptional optics and camera that have been calibrated to correct any errors in the image they might be very accurate. I wouldn't be surprised we would be talking about tenth or a hundreth of a millimeter.

When you have one or more objects of known dimensions in the shot, you can correct for the skew angles in two dimensions, and you can get down to maching tolerances fairly quickly for simple geometries. For complex 3d shapes you need photos from multiple angles, and then trickery like using reflections etc come into play.

[mwillems]

I don't get this attempted retort. Yes, teams copy ideas all the time. No, teams do not wholesale copy entire cars all the time. That is an obviously and objectively unique scenario and that's why people are responding to it differently. Feel about it however you want but don't lie and pretend it's a normal thing that happens all the time.

Err.... it wasn't a retort just an expression of my opinion. Opinions are subjective and therefore cant really be lies either.

In my opinion, when a precedent is set it tends to lay the course for most things that extend out from it. Copying for me is a precedent that has been set, so I have no issue with what Racing Point has done. It won't win them a title or too many fans in the long run. But I'm not too bothered about that either. In my view its a strategic masterstroke and hats off to them. I just wish it was Williams and not RP.

Is that an acceptable opinion?

Saying that you have no problem with what Racing Point have done is an opinion. Saying that copying an entire car is exactly the same as copying an individual part is not an opinion. They are objectively two different things. That's not an opinion, it's a simple statement of fact. The cancer of discourse on the internet is this idea that facts don't exist and every single thing is an "opinion" that's up for debate. Please, we don't need to go down that road.

Copying a car is not wrong in the rules, just certain parts, lets see what happens.

Have they got the information for the parts they copied in an underhand way? There is no evidence so at the moment that is fact. Does copying a break duct inform us that the whole process of copying the car was wrong? No, it tells us they copied a part that the rules said they shouldn't. I really can't see beyond that at the moment.

But I accept your point of view and why, because I think it is important to accept there can be more than one point of view, whether you personally agree with it or not. It is entirely possible they did a great job copying and just went a bit too far.

[SmallSoldier]

Very good pace at the end of the race

Thanks!!!


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[90feet]

Err.... it wasn't a retort just an expression of my opinion. Opinions are subjective and therefore cant really be lies either.

In my opinion, when a precedent is set it tends to lay the course for most things that extend out from it. Copying for me is a precedent that has been set, so I have no issue with what Racing Point has done. It won't win them a title or too many fans in the long run. But I'm not too bothered about that either. In my view its a strategic masterstroke and hats off to them. I just wish it was Williams and not RP.

Is that an acceptable opinion?

Saying that you have no problem with what Racing Point have done is an opinion. Saying that copying an entire car is exactly the same as copying an individual part is not an opinion. They are objectively two different things. That's not an opinion, it's a simple statement of fact. The cancer of discourse on the internet is this idea that facts don't exist and every single thing is an "opinion" that's up for debate. Please, we don't need to go down that road.

Copying a car is not wrong in the rules, just certain parts, lets see what happens.

Have they got the information for the parts they copied in an underhand way? There is no evidence so at the moment that is fact. Does copying a break duct inform us that the whole process of copying the car was wrong? No, it tells us they copied a part that the rules said they shouldn't. I really can't see beyond that at the moment.

But I accept your point of view and why, because I think it is important to accept there can be more than one point of view, whether you personally agree with it or not. It is entirely possible they did a great job copying and just went a bit too far.

You misunderstand. All I am trying to explain to you is that copying a part is different from copying a car, and that's not a point of view. It is a literal statement of fact. I'm not telling you that I do or don't think what they did was wrong or illegal. I'm simply trying to get you to understand the literal and objective fact that what they've done with the RP20 is inherently different from what other teams do when they copy individual parts. By no stretch of the imagination does this need to be an argument.

[diffuser]

Very good pace at the end of the race
https://radikal.ru

That isn't a very good comparison. It show's more about how turned down Hamilton's PU was at the end than anything else. Sure Hamilton could have done 1.07 flat the whole backend if they needed to. With Bottas behind and Max with a broken wing ...it was cruise till you snooze.

[diffuser]

This car is super quick on low fuel, but it loses so much compared to the competition on the bigger weight. I am guessing it has something to do with the tire management, maybe they can't get enough heat into them, I am not sure. I have also spotted that they get a lot faster towards the end of the tire stint too. Like when the tires are about to run out, McLaren manages to get a lot more out of the car compared to the competition.

I hope they pinpoint what's causing this slump on race day because if they an translate their quali pace into sundays, then there are chances to take a lot of points if Albon has off-weekends (like Styria). It is also necessary in order to keep the Racing Points behind for the time being until some upgrades (which were originally planned for Silverstone if I am not mistaken) for the car. Hopefully they deliver some extra performance because at the moment the RP is faster on race trim and that's when the points are awarded.

I think the car's performance on high fuel is fine, doesn't get any faster compared to others on lower fuel.

That is normal, a driver goes through a tire management routine. When you finally get confirmed you're gonna change the tires in 2 to 5 laps, if you have free air you push as hard as your engine mod allows, no need to save the tires anymore.

The funny thing was that Sainz pitted when he did cause tires were wearing out and he was gonna get past by Ricardo.

I see no evedence thier car is any faster on low fuel.

[mwillems]

Saying that you have no problem with what Racing Point have done is an opinion. Saying that copying an entire car is exactly the same as copying an individual part is not an opinion. They are objectively two different things. That's not an opinion, it's a simple statement of fact. The cancer of discourse on the internet is this idea that facts don't exist and every single thing is an "opinion" that's up for debate. Please, we don't need to go down that road.

Copying a car is not wrong in the rules, just certain parts, lets see what happens.

Have they got the information for the parts they copied in an underhand way? There is no evidence so at the moment that is fact. Does copying a break duct inform us that the whole process of copying the car was wrong? No, it tells us they copied a part that the rules said they shouldn't. I really can't see beyond that at the moment.

But I accept your point of view and why, because I think it is important to accept there can be more than one point of view, whether you personally agree with it or not. It is entirely possible they did a great job copying and just went a bit too far.

You misunderstand. All I am trying to explain to you is that copying a part is different from copying a car, and that's not a point of view. It is a literal statement of fact. I'm not telling you that I do or don't think what they did was wrong or illegal. I'm simply trying to get you to understand the literal and objective fact that what they've done with the RP20 is inherently different from what other teams do when they copy individual parts. By no stretch of the imagination does this need to be an argument.

I'm not after an argument on here don't worry lol
I understand the difference, I think what I don't understand is why some would get upset about it or want bans etc.

Amongst some, and I haven't noted names, there just seems to be a desire to punish Racing Point, even before they have been shown to do anything wrong. It seems that a willed assumption is there and it seems to be enough, but I think that if we were comfortably faster than RP you'd not see people complain in this thread so much... so I question some motives and opinions placed as fact.

That's my only point really, we know what we both think so I'm ducking out now

[SmallSoldier]

This car is super quick on low fuel, but it loses so much compared to the competition on the bigger weight. I am guessing it has something to do with the tire management, maybe they can't get enough heat into them, I am not sure. I have also spotted that they get a lot faster towards the end of the tire stint too. Like when the tires are about to run out, McLaren manages to get a lot more out of the car compared to the competition.

I hope they pinpoint what's causing this slump on race day because if they an translate their quali pace into sundays, then there are chances to take a lot of points if Albon has off-weekends (like Styria). It is also necessary in order to keep the Racing Points behind for the time being until some upgrades (which were originally planned for Silverstone if I am not mistaken) for the car. Hopefully they deliver some extra performance because at the moment the RP is faster on race trim and that's when the points are awarded.

I think the car's performance on high fuel is fine, doesn't get any faster compared to others on lower fuel.

That is normal, a driver goes through a tire management routine. When you finally get confirmed you're gonna change the tires in 2 to 5 laps, if you have free air you push as hard as your engine mod allows, no need to save the tires anymore.

The funny thing was that Sainz pitted when he did cause tires were wearing out and he was gonna get past by Ricardo.

I see no evedence thier car is any faster on low fuel.

I tend to agree... On Sunday, the pace of Carlos was fairly similar to Albon which seems to indicate that he was just managing the gap to him in order to have some slip stream but not be hurt by the turbulent air, which seems to be in the 2.5 seconds difference to be in the “sweet spot”.



I don’t think that Carlos first pit stop was due to tire wear, since Lando managed to get his tires to last 39 laps... It was more an strategical stop to prevent the undercut by RIC himself, RIC closed the gap to less than a second and beyond been under attack by RIC the main concern could have been an stop by RIC into Hard tires and been stuck behind him in the second stint.

Carlos pace in the second stint as we all know was hampered not only by losing in excess of 4 seconds, but also coming out in the middle of traffic and wearing the tires too early into the stint.


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[90feet]

Copying a car is not wrong in the rules, just certain parts, lets see what happens.

Have they got the information for the parts they copied in an underhand way? There is no evidence so at the moment that is fact. Does copying a break duct inform us that the whole process of copying the car was wrong? No, it tells us they copied a part that the rules said they shouldn't. I really can't see beyond that at the moment.

But I accept your point of view and why, because I think it is important to accept there can be more than one point of view, whether you personally agree with it or not. It is entirely possible they did a great job copying and just went a bit too far.

You misunderstand. All I am trying to explain to you is that copying a part is different from copying a car, and that's not a point of view. It is a literal statement of fact. I'm not telling you that I do or don't think what they did was wrong or illegal. I'm simply trying to get you to understand the literal and objective fact that what they've done with the RP20 is inherently different from what other teams do when they copy individual parts. By no stretch of the imagination does this need to be an argument.

I'm not after an argument on here don't worry lol
I understand the difference, I think what I don't understand is why some would get upset about it or want bans etc.

Amongst some, and I haven't noted names, there just seems to be a desire to punish Racing Point, even before they have been shown to do anything wrong. It seems that a willed assumption is there and it seems to be enough, but I think that if we were comfortably faster than RP you'd not see people complain in this thread so much... so I question some motives and opinions placed as fact.

That's my only point really, we know what we both think so I'm ducking out now

You say you're not after an argument and yet you again repeat things I haven't said. You don't need to do that.

And yeah, of course people wouldn't be complaining as much about Racing Point if their strategy hadn't worked. There's no need to protest a failed strategy. That's not a "gotcha," that's just obvious.