How soon will Vettel / RBR wrap up 2013?

[raymondu999]

Since his first championship win Vettel seems to have not only a lot of luck, but he's taken the luck of the other drivers as well and it's getting quite tiring following the championship orders, I used to a lot because it has been closer in previous years before Vettel/RBR dominance, but now it's more on a race to race basis and don't pay attention to the championship apart from the midfield where it is always interesting.

It would be nice for him to have at least one DNF and for Hamilton or Alonso to win that race, but I doubt it will happen, and when he does retire, it seems some of his rivals do so at the same race and cannot capitalise.

I'd say India at this rate, although I probably won't watch the race, I find the track incredibly boring.

I'm sorry, but that post is filled with factual inaccuracies. What do you base that claim on?

It's not based on factual evidence at all. SiLo clearly said "seems to" - ie this post is an opinion and not a fact-based posting.

[raymondu999]

For lack of a better place to post this, thought this was an interesting piece by Bourdais: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23259028

[mnmracer]

Since his first championship win Vettel seems to have not only a lot of luck, but he's taken the luck of the other drivers as well and it's getting quite tiring following the championship orders, I used to a lot because it has been closer in previous years before Vettel/RBR dominance, but now it's more on a race to race basis and don't pay attention to the championship apart from the midfield where it is always interesting.

It would be nice for him to have at least one DNF and for Hamilton or Alonso to win that race, but I doubt it will happen, and when he does retire, it seems some of his rivals do so at the same race and cannot capitalise.

I'd say India at this rate, although I probably won't watch the race, I find the track incredibly boring.

I'm sorry, but that post is filled with factual inaccuracies. What do you base that claim on?

It's not based on factual evidence at all. SiLo clearly said "seems to" - ie this post is an opinion and not a fact-based posting.

That doesn't make it sensible. Opinions are there to fill in the gaps of answers we don't have facts about, not to replace facts. If I say I have a feeling the world is flat, people are also going to ask me what I've been smoking.

[raymondu999]

That doesn't make it sensible. Opinions are there to fill in the gaps of answers we don't have facts about, not to replace facts. If I say I have a feeling the world is flat, people are also going to ask me what I've been smoking.

No opinion in the world has to be right. People will ask what you've been smoking, but it doesn't mean you can't have that opinion.

[iotar__]

For lack of a better place to post this, thought this was an interesting piece by Bourdais: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23259028

I don't see anything sensational or new. I wonder what Bourdais would say about Buemi if we're talking about benchmarks and "dismantling".

Young, talented driver, not mentally strong, over-steer car control (the reason for being good in the wet?), mistake-prone and requirement for special treatment and special car, preferably dominant. We knew it better from struggles of the beginning of the 2012 season and Marko's excuses that Webber (also "over-steer driver") has talent to copy with current car whereas Vettel doesn't and and needs everything tailor-made. A bit weird considering that it was pretty certain development wasn't focused on Webber after 2011 . Vettel's "form" and advantage came back for a while in Bahrain not from supreme car control and talent but with a dominant Red Bull and tyre management advantage, qualifying would have been different, AGAIN, without Webber being held up so nothing changed in "speed" department. Then Spain, Monaco, Canada, Valencia, GB - a pattern for further evidence.

[mnmracer]

That doesn't make it sensible. Opinions are there to fill in the gaps of answers we don't have facts about, not to replace facts. If I say I have a feeling the world is flat, people are also going to ask me what I've been smoking.

No opinion in the world has to be right. People will ask what you've been smoking, but it doesn't mean you can't have that opinion.

Do you really think this "everyone has an opinion" hugging is a type of contribution worth defending? There's enough useless stuff on the internet as it is. Let's at least filter out the obviously incorrect 'contributions' and at least ask people to respect the facts. I don't see what's wrong about expecting a tiny slice of quality, and saying no to "world is flat"-ers.

[sennafan24]

If Silo had not talked about DNF's his point would carry more weight. In the article above it say "Vettel made his own luck" I think that is accurate.

Vettel did win the lottery when he signed with Red Bull for 2009, since around the Summer of 2009 the Red Bull has consistently been the best car on the grid, but the majority of the time Vettel has made the very most of it. The first few years he did not have a shopworn teammate as well, he did not get lucky as such in landing Webber in his prime as a teammate initially.

But as said in the article "he made his own" luck. He performed to a acceptable level in the BMW in 2007 in order to get his Toro Rosso drive, and whilst the gap between him and his teammate at Toro Rosso is not as much as the stats would indicate, he performed well where it mattered at Monza to land his "lottery ticket" as I put it. Much like Lewis as well, he is no "pay driver" the guy is from a working class background, he is there initially on his own merit as a driver.

2013 has been a year where Vettel I think has stepped up as a driver, he has done more this year to win the title on merit than the previous 3 combined in my eyes. Races like Germany where the Lotus was faster, or that incredible overtake on Alonso shows its not just the car and a shopworn teammate flattering a average driver. Vettel in 2013 for me is a league above the Vettel of 2012.

I am not his biggest fan, but stuff like collisions, DNF's and team errors have not gone his way more than Alonso in the past 3-4 years, as shown n the other page. With Lewis, 2012 you have to say fair enough if you at the estimates me and beebblob worked out on the other page, but this year both Lewis/Vettel have had similar luck on those areas if I am fair.

[LionKing]

Young, talented driver, not mentally strong, over-steer car control (the reason for being good in the wet?), mistake-prone and requirement for special treatment and special car, preferably dominant. We knew it better from struggles of the beginning of the 2012 season and Marko's excuses that Webber (also "over-steer driver") has talent to copy with current car whereas Vettel doesn't and and needs everything tailor-made. A bit weird considering that it was pretty certain development wasn't focused on Webber after 2011 . Vettel's "form" and advantage came back for a while in Bahrain not from supreme car control and talent but with a dominant Red Bull and tyre management advantage, qualifying would have been different, AGAIN, without Webber being held up so nothing changed in "speed" department. Then Spain, Monaco, Canada, Valencia, GB - a pattern for further evidence.

In 2012 Vettel was faster than Webber in races from get go. In the first race he was even faster than Lewis in McLaren where both McLaren qualified 0.75 sec in front of the RBRs.

In Malaysia Vettel was 4th and infront of Webber before Kartikeyan ciped his left rear.

At China, he tried the A spec RBR and two stops strategy and finished 2 seconds behind Webber.

In Bahrain Webber qualified third and held his position at the start. He was passed by Lotus and finally finished 40 seconds behind Vettel and 28 secs behind a driver like Grosjean in 4th

He was quite faster than Webber in Spain, Canada and Valencia races as well...

[sennafan24]

In 2012 Vettel was faster than Webber in races from get go. In the first race he was even faster than Lewis in McLaren where both McLaren qualified 0.75 sec in front of the RBRs.

In Malaysia Vettel was 4th and infront of Webber before Kartikeyan ciped his left rear.

At China, he tried the A spec RBR and two stops strategy and finished 2 seconds behind Webber.

In Bahrain Webber qualified third and held his position at the start. He was passed by Lotus and finally finished 40 seconds behind Vettel and 28 secs behind a driver like Grosjean in 4th

He was quite faster than Webber in Spain, Canada and Valencia races as well...

You missed out what happened at Monaco and Silverstone. Plus, people still debate the Kartikeyan incident to this day as to who was at fault.

Acknowledging this would have given your post more balance, instead it just reads as one-sided as the one you responded to.

[LionKing]

You missed out what happened at Monaco and Silverstone. Plus, people still debate the Kartikeyan incident to this day as to who was at fault.

Acknowledging this would have given your post more balance, instead it just reads as one-sided as the one you responded to.

If I say Vettel was faster than Webber in such and such races in the beginning of the season, you can deduce that in the other few Webber performed better.

If I list 8 races Lewis beat Rosberg in qualy so far, there is no need to list the other 3. They are complementary!

[sennafan24]

If I say Vettel was faster than Webber in such and such races in the beginning of the season, you can deduce that in the other few Webber performed better.

If I list 8 races Lewis beat Rosberg in qualy so far, there is no need to list the other 3. They are complementary!

Fair enough, but I think you could have mentioned them in passing, you went in detail on the races Vettel beat Webber in, like comparing Webber and Vettel to how other drivers performed in those races, yet nothing about the races Webber beat Vettel.

At any rate, I do agree with most of what you wrote. I think Vettel/Webber in 2012, much like Lewis/Nico this year were pretty close for the first third of the year in terms of overall performance. Then one driver pulled away and showed his class for the rest of the year (pending with Lewis/Nico this year, as there are a good few races left for Nico to make a comeback)

To bring it back on topic, 2013 Vettel has not given Webber a sniff. I think Vettel struggled at the start of 2012, he has not struggled at all in 2013, which is one of the reasons I rate Vettel's overall performance this year so highly.

[CHT]

13 races down, 60 points margin, 150 more points to play.

Interesting for the last 3 races, Vettel and Alonso have been finishing 1-2.
If they continue to finish in this order, then WDC should be wrap up at India.

[Fabi1111]

India!

[WhiteBlue]

I think more Japan.

[CHT]

I think more Japan.

Japan is possible but they will need alonso cooperation to make it happen. I think it will be in RBR interest to wrap up both championship early and let Newey focus on 2014 at the factory.

I think a great ending to the season will be for Vettel and RBR to help Webber win one final GP before this retirement from f1