Should RBR take the Ferrari engines back from STR?

[Scotracer]

does anybody know if teams release historical data about their cars? Say, if after 3 or 5 years, they have to disclose performance data?

The only data I have is for the Ferrari F2000's engine:

Pressure ref kh Temp Humidity
998.32 mbar 1.0111 20 ‹C 49%
RPM Torque (m.kg) Torque (N.m) kW HP (met)
8500 22.53 221.02 196.73 267.48
9000 24.09 236.32 222.73 302.83
9500 25.12 246.43 245.16 333.32
10000 25.90 254.08 266.07 361.76
10500 26.80 262.91 289.08 393.04
11000 28.75 282.04 324.88 441.72
11500 32.43 318.14 383.13 520.91
12000 32.90 322.75 405.58 551.43
12500 33.24 326.08 426.84 580.35
13000 34.17 335.21 456.34 620.45
13500 34.70 340.41 481.24 654.30
14000 35.00 343.35 503.38 684.40
14500 35.10 344.33 522.84 710.87
15000 35.36 346.88 544.88 740.83
15500 35.35 346.78 562.88 765.31
16000 34.96 342.96 574.63 781.28
16500 34.32 336.68 581.74 790.95
17000 33.75 331.09 589.41 801.38
17250 33.23 325.99 588.87 800.64

Shows 800BHP in 2000.

[Conceptual]

does anybody know if teams release historical data about their cars? Say, if after 3 or 5 years, they have to disclose performance data?

The only data I have is for the Ferrari F2000's engine:

Pressure ref kh Temp Humidity
998.32 mbar 1.0111 20 ‹C 49%
RPM Torque (m.kg) Torque (N.m) kW HP (met)
8500 22.53 221.02 196.73 267.48
9000 24.09 236.32 222.73 302.83
9500 25.12 246.43 245.16 333.32
10000 25.90 254.08 266.07 361.76
10500 26.80 262.91 289.08 393.04
11000 28.75 282.04 324.88 441.72
11500 32.43 318.14 383.13 520.91
12000 32.90 322.75 405.58 551.43
12500 33.24 326.08 426.84 580.35
13000 34.17 335.21 456.34 620.45
13500 34.70 340.41 481.24 654.30
14000 35.00 343.35 503.38 684.40
14500 35.10 344.33 522.84 710.87
15000 35.36 346.88 544.88 740.83
15500 35.35 346.78 562.88 765.31
16000 34.96 342.96 574.63 781.28
16500 34.32 336.68 581.74 790.95
17000 33.75 331.09 589.41 801.38
17250 33.23 325.99 588.87 800.64

Shows 800BHP in 2000.

Is it odd that the HP is higher at 17K RPM than at 17,250?

Chris

[Scotracer]

Torque drop off. All cars have a drop off after a certain RPM. What you find year-on-year is that the engineers manage to create max torque further and further up the rev band but also make the torque curve wider with it so the drop off isn't as severe and at a much higher RPM -- therefore more power and drivability.

[The FOZ]

Let's assume a few things, just to help the "Red Bull Racing going back to Ferrari Engines" argument along.

First, let's assume that the Ferrari engine in the red cars are physically identical to those being sold to STR. Then, let's also assume that Renault has done nothing to improve their engine, and that Ferrari has.

That would provide the strongest plausible set of conditions to back up the argument.

But here's the thing.

The engine is only a piece of the puzzle. A major one, to be sure, but just a piece. STR and RBR are both a big step behind Ferrari in terms of their race technologies. The suspension, aero, drive train...all these things can fairly safely be assumed to be inferior, if only by a small margin, to those of Ferrari.

It's my understanding that Ferrari supplied their engines for homologation at the beginning of the season. That tells me no more physical engine development has occurred. But since there have been improvements, I can only conclude that the improvements came in the way of engine mapping and intake/exhaust systems.

Furthermore, while Ferrari does supply engines to STR, it's very unlikely that they supply engine management data (fuel mapping curves) along with them. Also, the intake and exhaust systems may or may not be supplied to STR along with the engines.

So should RBR switch back to Ferrari? Nope.

Just because Renault has chosen to do zero with their engines this season, doesn't mean that RBR should do nothing. They've either tried, to no significant improvement, or are unwilling or unable to try. Either way, a change to Ferrari engines would present a similar set of circumstances, which would gain them nothing.

Bottom line, when Ferrari goes out and manages a +10 hp "Reliability Improvement", you can bet your bottom dollar that they don't send a tech over to STR to help them implement the same changes.

[Miguel]

Bottom line, when Ferrari goes out and manages a +10 hp "Reliability Improvement", you can bet your bottom dollar that they don't send a tech over to STR to help them implement the same changes.

The crux of the question is it seems they have to! I don't know the regulations myself but from what other people here have said, the specs of the engines you use and supply must be identical. After all, you wouldn't leave your "buddy" with less "reliability", right? And BTW, Renault has a guy (at least) totally devoted to working with RBR to ensure the engine is working fine. I am pretty sure they have all the data from the engine.

Sentence written by an engine-clueless Miguel: Anyway, what would you do with a complex engine you haven't designed and no engine mapping data? Experiment until it blows? Make it run as fast as a GP2 engine? Put a McLaren ECU and hope it works? Oh, wait...

[The FOZ]

I can't confirm that one way or another - does the regulation state that engines must be identical at the start of the season, or must the be identical all season long?

Now, if you're a team with an engine, an ECU, and no mapping data, you'd start with a dyno and a stoichiometric 14.7:1 air to fuel ratio(or whatever passes for "perfect" with the fuel in these cars)...run a zero advance ignition timing, and then you tune from there.

[Rob W]

Yeah, that´s what Berger thinks... Do you really really believe that Ferrari would do that?
Sorry, I tend to think like Modbaraban here.

I agree. There's no way STR are using the same engine as Ferrari.

R

[Conceptual]

Yeah, that´s what Berger thinks... Do you really really believe that Ferrari would do that?
Sorry, I tend to think like Modbaraban here.

I agree. There's no way STR are using the same engine as Ferrari.

R

And you say that with what conviction?

I would love to see Scarbs jump in on this one..

Chris

[Rob W]

And you say that with what conviction?

Nothing but gut feeling. ..

That, and a long memory of Ferrari's general demeanour, actions and operations in F1 and how it would be unlikely they'd not gladly take any opportunity to create or maintain an advantage over any other team - basically by any means if it wasn't provable.

(Not saying they're alone in this at all - just, at this level of sport, if you think you can get away with pushing the boundaries you do it. As a matter of course)

R

[Giblet]

I remember reading somewhere that the gains we are seeing since the engine homo kiked in that it was mostly due to fluids and lubricants.

Look at the Mclaren with its smaller sidpod inlet. When was the last time anyone can remember them making the inlets _smaller_? Heat has gotten worse every year, but if the fluids keep the engine cooler, it will develop better power.

[CMSMJ1]

I seem to recall reading that one of the reasons RBR decided on renault engines is that historically the Renault customer teams have a chance of winning with the engine.

Ferrari customer engines do not win races...it would be very bad PR for the Scuderia for this to happen.

I would guess that the core of the motor is the same as homologated but that the various ancillaries that can be changed and developed have been done so only by Ferrari.

The STR motor could be installed in the red car and with the external additions and lubricants it would perform the same as the std motor.

We might never know..but if we asked Mike Gascgoine then we might get a straight answer as he strikes me as an honest chap.

[pitlaneimmigrant]

You're all forgetting one key fact. It's not just a case of RBR saying to STR 'Give us those engines' because STR will have signed a supply contract with Ferrari. The reverse happened when RBR switched to Renault the legal wrangling was a major consideration (unless of course the contracts are annually renewed)
Any change to the engine supply deal would require the input of Ferrari, RBR, STR and Renault.

As for the idea that Ferrari might supply STR with below spec engines, why on earth would they? Having a second team running your engines gives you twice as much development milage and, as STR isn't in with a chance of beating the boys in red, you would want maximum brand exposure (ie points) for the team.

Of course, if the above wasn't a consideration, I think that RBR would be very interested by the Ferrari engine package

PitlaneImmigrant

[Conceptual]

I think it is to the point that we would need some answers from the inside to make any realistic conclusions to this possibility.

Scarbs, do you have any info on this?

Chris

[Scotracer]

As a little experiment, I decided to tune the engine of the BMW Sauber F1.08 on rFactor to give it an extra 10-15BHP. When I tried it out, I seriously noticed no difference at all, and lap times were virtually identical.

I think Renault are exaggerating this entire debacle as serious amount. Look at the evidence (chosen at random):

Magny-Cours qualifying speed trap results

Pos No Driver Time of Day Speed
1 2 Felipe Massa 14:08:27 307.6
2 6 Nelsinho Piquet 14:41:42 307.6
3 5 Fernando Alonso 14:19:54 306.9
4 1 Kimi Räikkönen 14:09:04 306.4
5 7 Nico Rosberg 14:12:06 305.4
6 22 Lewis Hamilton 14:41:31 305.1
7 8 Kazuki Nakajima 14:12:33 303.3
8 4 Robert Kubica 14:41:34 302.0
9 14 Sebastien Bourdais 14:12:24 301.6
10 3 Nick Heidfeld 14:41:55 301.6

Renault drivers 2nd and 3rd fastest

Bahrain qualifying speed trap results

Pos No Driver Time of Day Speed
1 2 Felipe Massa 14:38:40 314.1
2 1 Kimi Räikkönen 14:13:45 311.6
3 14 Sebastien Bourdais 14:04:14 310.0
4 5 Fernando Alonso 14:24:11 307.3
5 15 Sebastian Vettel 14:11:49 306.3
6 6 Nelsinho Piquet 14:24:03 306.3
7 23 Heikki Kovalainen 14:39:43 306.0
8 4 Robert Kubica 14:13:31 305.6
9 21 Giancarlo Fisichella 14:24:33 305.6
10 3 Nick Heidfeld 14:13:55 305.

Renault drivers 4th and 6th

Hungary qualifying speed trap results

Pos No Driver Time of Day Speed
1 14 Sebastien Bourdais 14:13:25 295.0
2 5 Fernando Alonso 14:11:44 294.5
3 23 Heikki Kovalainen 14:54:37 294.3
4 1 Kimi Räikkönen 14:18:06 293.5
5 22 Lewis Hamilton 14:34:36 293.4
6 8 Kazuki Nakajima 14:11:44 293.2
7 4 Robert Kubica 14:42:29 293.2
8 2 Felipe Massa 14:16:38 293.1
9 15 Sebastian Vettel 14:12:50 292.7
10 6 Nelsinho Piquet 14:41:16 292.6

Renault 2nd and 10th

Quit moaning Renault and do your job!

[Conceptual]

Does 15HP really allow you to overcome more drag? I would think it would, but possibly a VERY small amount.

Scotracer-

Tuning 15hp in rFactor may not really show much simply because all of the other factors. Unless you hold an absolutely identical line for both compared laps, the times are not going to be very accurate.

And about the speedtrap evidence, I would point to the possibility of Renault running slightly less wing to overcome the power disadvantage. Especially having a driver such as Alonso, one would think that taking a bit of wing off may give him the opportunity to be as fast as everyone else, and use his skill in cornering to make up the grip disadvantage.

Well, if I was Renault, that is what I would be doing...

Chris