Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
The argument with the access to the last pit stop position is interesting. That garage is probably FIA scrutineering and weight control? I would be surprised if team members cannot enter via the paddock and get access there. alternatively a call to Force India would have given them access via their customers garage. with a plan there would have been many options that do not include running through the working lane of the pits. the problem was that no contingency was planned.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
I think the WCC has a choice before each race to go to the front of the pit road or the back so we will probably see Ferrari at the other end next few races.
Pardon my rambling, I've got a little buzz... but I really think its time for the FIA to take a strong look at the design, safety measures and necessity/reason of refueling in the first place.
I am fully behind the fact that the cars should be refueled in-race and have a maximum fuel capacity to enforce the rule. I also think they ought to implement another rule so that teams can be rewarded for their fuel efficiency somehow. Make them start the race with a full tank and see how well they get off with pit stop strategy and the like after that. I think this furthers the engine technology.
Human error aside (which I don't think is the major problem anyway), I mean c'mon! How many times are they going to have problems with this design? Maybe they need to decrease the flow rate and allow the equipment to be smaller, hence less chance of crew members being injured by a massive (what looks like to me) 4" reinforced hose that probably weighs a couple hundred pounds when charged. Maybe a 2" hose is in order to make it more manouverable so that 1 man can do the job instead of 3. Thats 3 times the risk of error, nevermind the quantity of fuel that could spill if there were a puncture or something like that.
I'm not a ferrari fan AT ALL, but i can't help but feel bad for Massa. He had the race in hand, and was probably going to win the race much to my dismay. But, imagine if that hose developed a tear, or a valve was twisted or something while Massa was driving down pit lane on the limiter and the hose was charged. Sure, the ferrari team would have been safe - Massa left the box. How many boxes along the way would have had gallons of race fuel spilled into them when their cars were no doubt streaming into the pit lane as well. The joint could've looked like a California wildfire.
I really think Intertechnique needs to have their contract shoved up their ass and the FIA needs to rethink refueling purpose and implementation in the first place. ---, the NASCAR guys have a more reliable and safer refueling technique, and a hell of alot cheaper as well!
panchito401 this wasn't an Intertechnique problem it was a Ferrari problem - sure I dislike their fuel rigs and would rather ban refueling altogether for the reason that I think it would help spice up the on-track action as relative pace between all the cars would change as fuel burnt off - but I don't like to see blame placed where it isn't due.
It was a simple case of the guy at Ferrari in charge of the lights releasing Massa far too early. They hadn't even tried to remove the fuel rig at that point.
we do not know if the nozzle was stuck. it happens very often as we could see with DC's pit stop. in hot climates there seem to be a particular problem. This rig has never worked trouble free since they introduced it. ban refuelling!
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
Having watched the video multiple times the Ferrari guys did not even move to try and pull the hose out - I think the guy with his finger on the button spotted a gap in the traffic and reacted without thinking about the hose.
That said they do have far too many issues and refueling should be banned from the beginning of next season.
WhiteBlue wrote:we do not know if the nozzle was stuck. it happens very often as we could see with DC's pit stop. in hot climates there seem to be a particular problem.
I've looked at the videos of both of these incidents and am convinced the rigs got stuck because the car lurched forward, yanking it sideways - not because of a general rig failure of some sort.
I think, in their efforts to make them as snug fitting as possible (for safety reasons) they've made them so they really don't like to be yanked sideways (the angle would jam them). You could see how hard it was for the mechanics to remove Massa's fuel rig at the end of the pit lane. That wasn't caused by the heat.
The way I see it, there are a number of simple safety precautions that could be implemented to prevent cars driving off while the fuel rig is attached.
1) front & rear car-jack/mechanics should not be allowed to return car down to ground until fueling is complete as opposed to current method of bringing cars down as soon as tire change is complete.
2) attachement of fuel rig to activate Neutral gear setting & to overide drivers' selection. Dettachment of fuel rig to return normal driver gear selection.
3) attachement of fuel rig to cut power to wheels
4) attachement of fuel rig to activate in-car pneumatic air jacking system, thereby rasing car off ground until fuel rig is removed.
I belive the FIA has not been proactive in dealing with this issue themselves instead of passing the buck on to the teams & fuel rig mfgs. [-X
I agree that there is no push by anybody to make these things better. It is still the same old plain contraption they designed 15 years ago. with all the safety research one should have thought the fuel rigg would have been a major issue of research. it has never been. if just some mechanics get hurt nobody cares. it will take a catastrohal fire with multiple injuries to fix this.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best ..............................organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)
The way I see it, there are a number of simple safety precautions that could be implemented to prevent cars driving off while the fuel rig is attached.
1) front & rear car-jack/mechanics should not be allowed to return car down to ground until fueling is complete as opposed to current method of bringing cars down as soon as tire change is complete.
2) attachement of fuel rig to activate Neutral gear setting & to overide drivers' selection. Dettachment of fuel rig to return normal driver gear selection.
3) attachement of fuel rig to cut power to wheels
4) attachement of fuel rig to activate in-car pneumatic air jacking system, thereby rasing car off ground until fuel rig is removed.
I belive the FIA has not been proactive in dealing with this issue themselves instead of passing the buck on to the teams & fuel rig mfgs. [-X
make them go to dead engines like the superbike guys
on the bikes the rider has to get off of the bike, maybe make the driver get out of the car and run three circles around the car before driving off
Ferrari's "idiotic" sensor as done more harm than good. 2 mechanics left flat on the ground(European & Singaporean GP). What did the lollipop man ever did to deserve this?
wilson wrote:Ferrari's "idiotic" sensor as done more harm than good. 2 mechanics left flat on the ground(European & Singaporean GP). What did the lollipop man ever did to deserve this?
Well, actually, system works well. Both occasions were results of human error (European GP - Kimi started too early, Singapore - mechanic let green lights too early). I think Ferrari may add another set of lamps bit further and a bit bigger that would serve as last second driver caution if something goes wrong.
GTO wrote:Frankly I have seen many times, the lollipop man mistakenly let cars drive off while the fueling is still going on.
Ahh but a light can't be slammed back down on the nose of the car once the error is made...this is the crucial area where the lollipop rules.
Think about it, it takes very little effort to press a button, but to raise a lollipop needs force - you can't accidentally lift it and release the driver but you can accidentally press a button with a twitch of your finger. The system should be banned as there is no over-ride / secondary course of action if a mistake is made. Unlike smacking the nose with the lollipop again.
