Williams, the last dozen years

[alexbarwell]

Ciro, it's true - we can't dance, just some brits think they can which is normally bad news. With such tightening rules it is difficult to find an opportunity for innovation that teams including williams have excelled at. The 'progress' is more about finding the little details and optimising which an innovator is not so good at. The bernie declaration about dishing out medals and encouraging daring moves (even if the likes of hamilton get penalised for just that) made me think of muttley from the wacky races/catch the pigeon - he'd do anything for a medal. Could do with exclusively opposing technology routes like short wheelbase lighter cars with smaller engines and turbos, versus long wheel base heavier cars, bigger engines and no turbo - just so the benefits see-saw depending on tracks and conditions - choose the basic config route at the start of the season. Agree the notion of a technology partner effectively copying ideas and running, a slight variation on the spying theme even though everyone has copied some tricks from everyone else. Lets not feed the lawyers anymore and get back to the art of racing.

[roost89]

I thought I may add this to the debate:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/22/t ... get-4456m/

Money has been spoken about a wee bit, comparing STR to Williams and the like.
If you look at the figure for this year, Williams' main rival (for money spent) is Red Bull.
They're spending a vast amount less than the big hitters. Both are also fighting with the ones that are soending double what they are.

I think it also shows that budget is almost directly related to the (current) position in the constructors' championships.

Position | Team | Budget
5 - Toyota - $445.6m
1 - McLaren - $433.3m
2 - Ferrari - $414.9m
9 - Honda - $398.1m
4 - Renault - $393.8m
3 - BMW Sauber - $366.8m
7 - Red Bull Racing - $164.7m
8 - Williams - $160.6m
6 - Toro Rosso - $128.2m
10 - Force India - $121.85m

[WhiteBlue]

I can relie on Ciro to make me laugh. BMW stealing technology from Williams, haha! If they got something in terms of know how out of the deal they paid a hefty price. there must have been close to a billion $$ chaging hands over the period of the contract. and if you ask Frank Williams about BMW he will tell you that he was and is very happy with the company.

Next, calling Mario Theissen a sociopath [-X I thought of you as an intelligent person. This comment puts some doubts in my mind about it. It sounds like you were drunk when you wrote it.

Next point is about the perceived superiority of British F1 engineering. I'd say they are good at it. They have an awefull lot of resources in the country and that makes it a no brainer to go there. On the other side it would do F1 a lot of good if engineers in Italy, Germany and and France or perhaps USA, Arabia and China would mix it with the best and take up the challenge.

[donskar]

Next point is about the perceived superiority of British F1 engineering. I'd say they are good at it. They have an awefull lot of resources in the country and that makes it a no brainer to go there. On the other side it would do F1 a lot of good if engineers in Italy, Germany and and France or perhaps USA, Arabia and China would mix it with the best and take up the challenge.

And Ciro can add that there have been some talented South American engineers in F1 - one was employed at Ferrari not so many years ago. Ciro?

[WhiteBlue]

..
Position | Team | Budget
5 - Toyota - $445.6m
1 - McLaren - $433.3m
2 - Ferrari - $414.9m
9 - Honda - $398.1m
4 - Renault - $393.8m
3 - BMW Sauber - $366.8m
7 - Red Bull Racing - $164.7m
8 - Williams - $160.6m
6 - Toro Rosso - $128.2m
10 - Force India - $121.85m

I would add that those figures are likely to be very accurate as they come from Christian Sylt, who is F1's public controller if there has ever been one. He has access to Bernie's data vault and and most of the F1 teams.


BMW are certainly doing very well to run in P3 with a sixt rated budget. Red Bull with a total budgt of 292.9 m are doing very well if you look at the combined constructors points. They certainly get a lot of bang for the bucks although they cannot come close to BMW who spend close to their figures.

Actually Williams are structurally only comparable to FI. And in this class of also runs they are the champions.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, I don't know of any southamerican engineers in F1, but that's irrelevant. I happily concede the superiority of europeans, (and germans excelling at it), when mechanical engineering is involved. Latinamericans have contributed almost zilch to the human knowledge in that field, let's be sincere. Thanks anyway, donskar.

Glad to make you laugh, WB. More laugh is on your way, I think.

I guess you can stop smiling and point now to us the great moments in the history of BMW at F1 racing before the Williams deal to counteract my arguments, instead of relying on the suggestion of me being drunk (how far would you go? I thought Interesting question, now answered).

You know I find amusing to point newbies in this forum the logic fallacies you (or me) can fall into when talking, and "Ad hominem" attack is one of them.

Anyway, I'd also love to hear about the big PR moments of Mr. Thiessen's life, or his charming talk, his most persuasive discourses or his feats at racing since his childhood. I know he knows cars, he's a Doctor in Mechanical Engineering, but AFAIK, he knew nothing about F1 before April 1999. He reminds me of Sarah Palin: great at generalities.

I also find mildly amusing Mr. Thiessen already forgotten criticisms of Williams, many of them in the same style of the ones I find in this thread.

Wasn't he a strong critic of Williams "inability to win a constructor championship" or "their incapacity of having multiple GP victories through the year"?

I'm quoting the guy from memory but I have good memory. Anyway, it's easy to find comments from him like this one: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 036349.stm

It can be applied to him right now, almost word by word. I was incensed when I saw the tortoise logo on BMW's truck, back in 2003. Who this guy believes he is? Now we know who he is. A guy that has spent during the last three years over a billion on NOT winning what he (according to his own words) deserved because of his stupendous engines. Hot air, that's what we see, if we are able to remember his promises.

Don't get me wrong: I think that some day BMW will get a championship. I actually hope so. I like diversity and I like all teams and drivers (I spend half of my time here defending them) and, over all, I like BMWs. But how easily we forget the "fine points" in history! The beam in our own eye.

Where are his constructor championship cups? Or, maybe, has he lowered his expectations about what constitutes a great team? Around 2004 he was, for anyone with two eyes and a brain, in a political move to discredit Williams and get his own team. Very similar to the story I read here in some posts of this thread, except people here doesn't do it for a position.

Maybe I'm wrong (I always start thinking that), so any histories or anecdotes about Mr. Thiessen that can change my point of view about him are welcome. Anyway, I think people calls him Flanders for a reason, and it's not his easiness at social meetings or his flamboyance.

He seems to me a strait laced guy. That's not a big deal, no problem for me with that, that's just a trait of personality or maybe education, I don't care. I don't think Mr. Williams is a great dancer either...

But I don't like what I saw as a well planned coup against Williams, robbing the team of direly needed support, in the middle of a crucial year, coup of which I don't know if Sir Frank can recover before he dies.

I don't like him a bit because of this, even if I can easily take my hat to his many other accomplishments. But he certainly has some sort of "skinflintness" hovering about him when it's about giving credit to Williams.

And that is what I don't like here: people that, to talk good things about someone, feel somehow impelled to talk bad about others.

Do we really need to be in the Inquisition to be good Catholics?

And talking about that, let me tell you that the only place I've been drinking at is at the fountain of justice (if it has not dried up completely)...

No, guys, I'm not ranting, I was born like this.

[Belatti]

Ingenieros sudamericanos en F1?

From Argentina:

* Mariano Alperin - Aerodimanic Chief (Ex Tyrrell-BAR-Honda, in BMW since 2007)
* Enrique Scalabroni - Owns BCN GP2 team (Ex Lotus, Ferrari, Williams)
* Sergio Rindland - Car Designer - (Ex RAM, Williams, Brabham, Dallara, Fodmetal, Forti, Benetton, Sauber, Arrows) - Now working as a consultant

There may be more, but these are the ones with notable long career.

[tarzoon]

You cynic! LOL

I wasn't trying to be cynic. At least not this time.

If you know a bit about english culture, it's about going down to the pub, drink a few pints and shout about with the voice of reason. And I would believe that after a few ones, they would shout about something they shouldn't. I don't consider this wrong. In fact, if the F1 developed in England more than any other country, this may very well be one of the reasons.

Williams is a personal show, or so I think. They're like Ferrari, the work of one man. That's what makes them a great team. And a great team is not necesarily a winning team: is a team that goes beyond its limits. That's why Toyota or BMW are not (will never be) great teams, while Minardi or Brabham were things fans cherish.

So was Lotus and McLaren (in the early days). Job from 9 to 5 don't produce the right results here. Neither super-ultra-fast-computers. These help a lot, indeed, but it's all a matter of details. And these come mostly from the obsessed few that even dream about every bit of the regulations and design.

[Carlos]

Friend Bellati - Did you see the article by Sergio Rindland in the on-line edition of Racecar Engineering this month? You know, if either of us lived in Europe I'm sure we would subscribe, it's a shame it's not economical to get in N or S America. I've often thought Sam Collins and his magazine are F1 technicals best commercial partners. Very generous of them to offer us the on line edition every month. There's also a very good article on the Cosworth 3.5 V10, as I recall your quite interested in engine design. Quite a good magazine isn't it?

PS - If you ever move to Europe to work in motor sport and subscribe, would you send me your old copies?

[donskar]

Thank you, Belatti. Rinland and Scalabroni were the ones my senile memory could not come up with, though Alperin has had a good career, too.

[Belatti]

PS - If you ever move to Europe to work in motor sport and subscribe, would you send me your old copies?

You bet.

So was Lotus and McLaren (in the early days). Job from 9 to 5 don't produce the right results here. Neither super-ultra-fast-computers. These help a lot, indeed, but it's all a matter of details. And these come mostly from the obsessed few that even dream about every bit of the regulations and design.

I think that if one day I get into a F1 team, I would work 16 hours a day, just for fun