Has F1 proved the Prius is a lot of lies?

[gridwalker]

As has been mentioned though, its not just the benefits to carbon emissions during its lifetime, my personal concern with electric hybrid vehicles is that their emissions savings are outweighed by the need to dispose of the pollutants contained in the batteries at the end of life.
(In a similar way we now have 1000's of fridges & freezers piled up around the place because of the nasty CFCs etc they used to use) will we see 100s of prius battery packs awaiting safe disposal...then need to run a special disposal facility to get rid of them, and so generate more pollution in doing so than the prius ever saved in its time on the road? (ditto this for hydrogren fuel cells...i understand they have some nasty materials/chemicals involved in their construction as well!)

The same argument can be made for quite a few "green" technologies. For example "clean coal" relies upon carbon sequestration, which merely stores carbon dioxide rather than removing it from the cycle entirely. Nobody seems to want to think about what will happen when this carbon eventually escapes into the environment (which is almost inevitable).

There have even been plans to pump the CO2 into the ocean, allowing it to dissolve in deep waters. At first this seemed like a rational course of action, until you take into account the role of CO2 in ocean acidification and the effect this has on the fish stocks that millions of people rely upon.

All technological solutions to environmental issues are a trade off between priorities, often relying upon another (as yet undeveloped) technological advance to rectify the issues that will be raised when the current technology reaches the end of it's lifespan.

There can be no overnight fix for "green motoring", which is still in it's infancy. When you look at the slow but steady advance in ICE technology since it's invention (despite the continual acceleration in modern technological development) it's pretty clear that we've got a long way to go before we can experience truely green motoring, but at least we're making progress.

On the other hand, F1's ultra-restricted development of KERS technology is like putting a green sticking plaster on a shotgun wound. When toyota engineers are laughing at the F1 KERS systems for being less advanced than the one on their road cars, you know something has to be wrong.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, I fail to see the relationship between F1 KERS and judgement of Prius. The concerns about F1 "being green" are naive, pro and con. We (only the people in the forum) spent more gas today that the entire grid spends in a race.

The "problem" of transportation in this world is the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE). Even if we incrase efficiency by 50% the rate of CO2 production is larger than what the Earth can adsorb.

Sure we do not have a replacement yet, but is equally sure that we need one. Instead of complaining about the "church" of conservation, find a solution or shut up, you whiners! I'm going to repeat myself a little, ignorance has to be fought (and it's taking longer than we thought! ).

For starters, what about moving closer to your work? That's the most efficient way to save gas. Changing and becoming a part of your local zoning rulings is as important as inventing the Flux Capacitor.

Fuel use per person vs city density: much more important than making more efficient ICEs


Now, most "problems" KERS teams had had come from ballast location. KERS will be used by teams if it gives you an overtaking advantage, period. Next year, under new rules, it might be.

On the other hand, the "problem" of Prius sales is an economic one (as Gecko timidly points out when he says "properly designed"):

You can save (yes, you can) around 500 dollars of gas per year. The difference in cost with a "regular" car, like a Honda Civic is around 8.000 dollars. So, you need 16 years or so to amortize the capital investment (at 3 dollars per gallon).

The truth about today's hybrids: they don't save any money.

Last year the oil price peak showed us when the Prius will become economical. It can happen any minute, just wait for gas to climb again.

As flynfrog points out, the problem is the battery pack. Batteries, up to this date, are too heavy, too expensive and too contaminant to become a storage energy alternative. You do not need F1 to find out, what you need is to watch this (the KERS thread).

flynfrog is right: we won't have electric cars until this graph moves up and to the right


I'm sorry to contradict Tomba, but even a mature flywheel technology as good as Flywheel Energy Systems gives you 50 Kilowatts for 60 seconds (Less than 1 Kwatt-hour), but the system weighs 135 kilos which means a puny 5.5 Watts-hour/Kg, and that's for a system devoted to "pure energy efficiency", without "race limitations". That puts flywheel "to the left" of the previous graph. Current flywheels doesn't even appear in that graph!

Williams has a... what? 35 kg system? For 2 Kw/h max power, if I'm not mistaken, with a total energy (per regulations) of... what? 200 KJ? C'mon, put that on the graph. Ridiculous. Sure they will advance, but we're not there yet: if the things were so easy as to put a regulation in place and solve world problems, the I would elect somebody else instead of Mosley, for starters. Stephen Hawking for FIA president, should be our motto...

Finally, let's be frank: F1 is a "fair of overpriced parts".

Most teams only have the capability of building the tub, as Belatti and Safeaschuck discussed in the Mahle pistons thread.

I think teams are devoted to design a "downforce car", which is what gives you advantage in F1 racing. The rest of the parts are outsourced. It's not like F1 teams are researching about batteries. In the end there are a few outsourcers who are doing the work. As many have pointed out, even that is not research: outsourcers are constricted by a set of narrow rules.

The only reason for an F1 team to devote significant time to KERS is if you plan to become the only provider for the series, case in which you can recover some money. I think that the ideas about an universal engine for all "european" series point in that direction.

Frankly, the whole KERS affair shows exactly why the Third World cannot wait for the developed countries to offer what this Earth needs. The cities of this world are moving, we have to find our own solutions. Tata is more important than McLaren.

Cities with 5 million inhabitants, 1955


Cities with 5 million inhabitants, 2015

[Belatti]

Sure we do not have a replacement yet, but is equally sure that we need one. Instead of complaining about the "church" of conservation, find a solution or shut up, you whiners! I'm going to repeat myself a little, ignorance has to be fought (and it's taking longer than we thought! ).

According to Zeitgeist, a free movie many have watched (Ciro, you too I think) we (humanity) already have the solution. Hopefully, this movie will help in the fight agaisnt ignorance

[xpensive]

One of the few perks with being en engineer, is that you are friends with numbers. That way you have the advantage of having a vague idea what you are talking about in technical discussions on a Saturday night.

Let's say that you are driving your 1000 kg(?) vehicle on a bad day when you hit 20 red-lights at 50 km/h, that way you lose 2000 kJ of kinetic energy, according to m*v^2/2.

If your car has a terrible fuel-efficiency of only 10% and the gasoline holds 34 200 kJ per liter, it would cost you 0.56 liter to regain the total lost momentum.

If your Prius can recover 50% of what is lost and you have the same bad luck with the red-lights every day for five years on the trot, you have saved yourself 500 liters of gasoline, which is about 550 EUR or 700 USD where I live.

[modbaraban]

One of the few perks with being en engineer, is that you are friends with numbers. That way you have the advantage of having a vague idea what you are talking about in technical discussions on a Saturday night.

It's funny how everyone thinks of it as freee energy savings when it comes to selling the idea of electric or hybryd cars. Did you consider the weight of the whole hybryd unit compared to the similar underpowered traditional engine (a small diesel?)? How much energy would you save by not carrying those batteries?
Not to mention how green the production of batteries is. =D> And then they go to the scrap yard...
Electric and hybryd cars are just as green as sweeping the dust behind the courtains is clean.

[xpensive]

I for one love to see ball-park numbers backing up statements here on F1T, so why don't you enlighten us modbaraban?

[Gecko]

It's funny how everyone thinks of it as freee energy savings when it comes to selling the idea of electric or hybryd cars. Did you consider the weight of the whole hybryd unit compared to the similar underpowered traditional engine (a small diesel?)? How much energy would you save by not carrying those batteries?

Weight itself does not cost energy. There is some more loss due to rolling friction, but the other losses are usually much more important. As long as you can recover most of the energy you put into accelerating the larger mass back into electricity when braking, more weight isn't really that important.

[kilcoo316]

Weight itself does not cost energy.

Depends on whether your going up hill or not.

[Ray]

As long as you can recover most of the energy you put into accelerating the larger mass back into electricity when braking, more weight isn't really that important.

You can't. It'll never add up. Why is everyone looking at MPG only? How much energy and environmental impact does the production of a new car and lithium battery packs vs a small efficient diesel? WTF is all this research about CO2 emissions and MPG focused solely on that and not the cost and waste of poorly inefficient and costly batteries?

I personally am looking into buying a Jetta TDI, and getting rid of my dumbass truck. I don't want a battery pack under my ass because those are alot worse for the planet than a diesel releasing a little CO2. This all much ado about nothing as far as I can see. The only 'solution' I've seen to this 'problem' of 'man caused global warming/climate change' has been higher costs for cars, subsidized (with tax money) kickbacks for buying a new car (releasing more pollutants in the air to produce it), gas taxes not going to road upkeep but peoples back pockets or other wasteful government spending, and the tightening of the vise on the US auto industry in a time of the beginning of a very serious depression, 'carbon tax', and other bullshit ways to siphon money from the many to the few.

But then again I think this is all going to a plan laid out by very few men in secrecy. But I'm nuts.

[Giblet]

I read somewhere, that braking in an F1 car at max load is 2500 "brake" horse power. Not BHP, but the HP of the brakes.... you know what I mean.

If that number is correct, what would be the max braking HP of a Prius?

When are silicon batteries coming about? I read 3 times energy density over current cells.

This article says 10...
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2008/janu ... 10908.html

Developments like these will quickly skew the numbers in favor of the hybrids, much like our gas engines are now quite efficient compared to the old oil burning hand cranking baloney.

[xpensive]

If you know the Prius' weight, speed and braking distance, you should be able to figure out the "braking-power", Giblet?

[Belatti]

I personally am looking into buying a Jetta TDI, and getting rid of my dumbass truck.

=D>

Trucks should be for heavy duty work, not daily transportation. A Jetta TDI is a good start. Then if you have to cross a city on a daily basis, get a 900Kg 1.2L car and you´ll feel like Sebastian Loeb compared to "truck" owners.

[Giblet]

If you know the Prius' weight, speed and breaking distance, you should be able to figure out the "breaking-power", Giblet?

My math outside of my trade, is weak. I could, but I don't bother as other people on here breathe math, and actually seem to enjoy it. For me it's just frustrating.

I am not an engineer.

I am barely a conceptualist.

Ps - in Canada we call them brakes. Breaks are bad, unless there is music involved.

[Richard]

But then again I think this is all going to a plan laid out by very few men in secrecy. But I'm nuts.

Regardless of anyone's views on climate change and how to measure our impact, the fact is that oil is a precious resource and we should use it as sparingly as possible. Also, a lot of Western countries simply don't have the land available for ever bigger roads for ever more cars.

So for exmaple, I get the train to work because it takes 15 minutes instead of the hour it takes by car, it is cheaper than parking, it means the valley I travel along has lots of green fields not tarmac. Oh, and I can have a quick read or sleep which I can't do in the car. Regardless of climate change, it's a no brainer.

The size of my car is dictated by small country rods and the size of my garage. I tend to keep them for 5-8 years, so that means I cause half the energy for car manufacturing than someone who changes every 3 years.

My car is only used at the weekends and holdiays, I do about 6,000 miles a year.

So for me the compelling argument is to down size and use less for a pleaseant chilled out lifestyle. Use less, so you have more cash in your pocket!

All the above saves more CO2 than any hybrid ... which is how I justify my SLK 350!

[dumbdave]

I like the traffic lights example xpensive, good one! (sounds like the sort of question which might come up in my sustainability exam )

As for carrying extra weight, F1 is proving that you can accomodate that weight by regaining weight in the design/construction of other components (ok, they may not have it perfected yet) but that is the way it will, go, whoever can reduce the weight of other components to allow the installation of KERS without being significantly the detrimental to the available ballast for weight distribution will have cracked it.
Regarding the extra weight in a road car...well just leave your CD collection at home & listen to the radio instead, saved 1kg there, go on a diet & loose 15kg, make your passenger diet as well & you've saved the weight of a current F1 KERS system already!