2021 Mclaren F1 Team

[SmallSoldier]

In regards to Daniel’s struggle at Monaco, I was looking at the telemetry for his fastest lap versus Lando’s (I wish I could post it here, but I was asked not to share or distribute it) and noticed a few interesting things:

- Daniel had more top speed coming into Turn 1 and Turn 10
- One of the biggest differences in the laps came in the transition from Turn 3 to Turn 4, where Lando applies up to ~95% Throttle compared to Daniel applying ~65% Throttle
- The only corner in the lap where Daniel achieves more corner speed is in Turns 15-16.
- They match their gear changes with the exception of the exit of Turn 16, where Lando stays in 4th Gear while Daniel upshifts to 5th before Turn 18.
- The biggest difference throughout the lap is in terms of braking performance... Lando consistently brakes later than Daniel and in some cases he is also releasing the brakes a bit earlier... In the Turn 3 - Turn 4 transition for example, while Daniel brakes earlier and longer, Lando brakes later, for a shorter period and then applies the brakes again while Daniel is still on the brakes (maybe that’s the reason for the difference in corner speed here, which is the largest difference in the lap).
- Lando lost his chances to P2 probably in the Turn 15-16 section, where even though Daniel and Lando are matched in terms of their initial braking point and time on the brakes, Lando has to apply the brakes again (just a tap) which also explains why Daniel is faster in this section compared to Lando.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

wow you have access to the telemetry? How did you manage that?

I had to ask for it

I know there are some ways to do it, pulling the information from the F1 Timing using Python, but I’m not versed on it, so I had to ask someone else... But, I was asked not to distribute the information (although it would have been cool to post it).

I have another request out there, I’ll see if it’s answered and if I can post that one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[radosav]

maybe this guy Norris is really really fast

[BMMR61]

maybe this guy Norris is really really fast

Could be, these things take time to contextualise. 2021 has shown that Carlos was/is faster than everyone thought and much faster than some thought. He schooled Lando on race craft who was slightly ahead on qualifying and now he is adding the important parts to the equation. It’s generally believed that Lando upped his game this year and is now close to Carlos therefore not much off Charles. He also at 21 has room to improve so is on track to be a serious contender within the next 2-5 years hence the contract extension last week.

[bauc]

maybe this guy Norris is really really fast

Could be, these things take time to contextualise. 2021 has shown that Carlos was/is faster than everyone thought and much faster than some thought. He schooled Lando on race craft who was slightly ahead on qualifying and now he is adding the important parts to the equation. It’s generally believed that Lando upped his game this year and is now close to Carlos therefore not much off Charles. He also at 21 has room to improve so is on track to be a serious contender within the next 2-5 years hence the contract extension last week.

I Agree, I remember young Alonso starting in Minardi ... so for some it takes time ... even Hamilton who was super fast right from the go in Mclaren took some time to develop his race craft.

[Mclarensenna]

maybe this guy Norris is really really fast

Could be, these things take time to contextualise. 2021 has shown that Carlos was/is faster than everyone thought and much faster than some thought. He schooled Lando on race craft who was slightly ahead on qualifying and now he is adding the important parts to the equation. It’s generally believed that Lando upped his game this year and is now close to Carlos therefore not much off Charles. He also at 21 has room to improve so is on track to be a serious contender within the next 2-5 years hence the contract extension last week.

yes everybody seems to believe that Lando has upped his game this year. Your first year in F1 sees the biggest gains, maybe a few tenths maybe half a second depending on how much room you had to improve. 2nd year maybe a tenth or 2. Then the law of diminishing returns set in. But 1 thing that is extremely unlikely is somehow Lando found half a second plus magically during an off season (3 months or whatever it was) with no testing allowed. It is basically almost impossible.


Show me an F1 driver with who did not switch teams in their 3rd year somehow gain half a second on his team mate who also did not switch teams and was there in their 3rd plus year together. Not leaving out the most important part, during an off season, with no testing allowed?

I will say both Lando and Carlos are very fast drivers that is not my argument.
But If Carlos had stayed at Mclaren the results would have been the same or very similar to last year. Maybe Lando gained a tenth which even that seems unlikely during an off season, (in season yes) but not half a second all of a sudden during an off season.
What seems to have happened is Ric is struggling to adapt and well off his usual pace.
Some also suggested Stroll upped his game all of a sudden. But then Vettel showed up at Monaco finally.

[Big Tea]

It makes a huge difference not being the 'junior' to an established lead, no matter how good you are. He is his own man now and it suites him

[BMMR61]

Driver progress is never linear. They have breakthroughs (and troughs). Judgements on drivers need to be made with a large cabinet of info which provides context. I returned to watching F1 beginning of 2019 because of a change of media supplier and because I liked the look of the changes being made at my favourite team. So I was aware that Carlos had been a strong teammate for Max who was obviously the next big thing. Lando came in with big wraps as a very talented teenager. Carlos has not been a lucky driver but always delivered, I like that and I still regard him as one of the three pillars of McLaren’s recovery with Zak and Andreas. Now we see that Carlos has a blend of talent and work ethic and other key strengths. Lando has been fortunate to have had him as like a big brother and so in only his third season he now has a strong war chest for his age. We can remember when Max was fast and erratic then he eliminated the crashes, his biggest breakthrough. Lando has quickly progressed from top 10 to top 6 driver maybe even better. I would caution drawing early judgement on Dan, he’s had some mega drives and he will come right.

[trinidefender]

maybe this guy Norris is really really fast

Could be, these things take time to contextualise. 2021 has shown that Carlos was/is faster than everyone thought and much faster than some thought. He schooled Lando on race craft who was slightly ahead on qualifying and now he is adding the important parts to the equation. It’s generally believed that Lando upped his game this year and is now close to Carlos therefore not much off Charles. He also at 21 has room to improve so is on track to be a serious contender within the next 2-5 years hence the contract extension last week.

I disagree with the, "faster than everyone thought" statement. Faster than you thought maybe. He was giving Verstappen a good run for his money even though it can be argued that Max got more favourable treatment in Torro Rosso, he probably wouldn't have left if not for the favouritism and internal politics that was going on in the Red Bull family. He never seemed comfortable at Renault which I sort of relate to how Daniel looks at McLaren now.

This year Lando upped his game more on race craft, strategy, tyre management and overall race pace. Lando's one lap qualifying pace was never in doubt having dominated almost every junior category that he raced in.

I believe if Carlos had stayed then it would be a tit for tat between the two with Lando just barely edging him over a season.

What is harder to judge is how much Lando has learned and improved with Daniel coming to McLaren. Lando has openly stated that he's learnt a lot from Daniel that might not have happened had Carlos stayed. I think one of Lando's strengths is the fact that he never stops learning. He's humble enough to know that he can learn something from everyone around him, something it seems that many drivers don't do enough of.

You can see it over their two seasons together how much he learnt from Carlos. Carlos has an incredible work ethic (fitness and otherwise), Lando has picked that up over time. He's also improved his starts massively. Let's hope that even though Daniel isn't 100% in the car yet that Lando can learn as much as possible from him to keep this fight going.

[SmallSoldier]

maybe this guy Norris is really really fast

Could be, these things take time to contextualise. 2021 has shown that Carlos was/is faster than everyone thought and much faster than some thought. He schooled Lando on race craft who was slightly ahead on qualifying and now he is adding the important parts to the equation. It’s generally believed that Lando upped his game this year and is now close to Carlos therefore not much off Charles. He also at 21 has room to improve so is on track to be a serious contender within the next 2-5 years hence the contract extension last week.

yes everybody seems to believe that Lando has upped his game this year. Your first year in F1 sees the biggest gains, maybe a few tenths maybe half a second depending on how much room you had to improve. 2nd year maybe a tenth or 2. Then the law of diminishing returns set in. But 1 thing that is extremely unlikely is somehow Lando found half a second plus magically during an off season (3 months or whatever it was) with no testing allowed. It is basically almost impossible.


Show me an F1 driver with who did not switch teams in their 3rd year somehow gain half a second on his team mate who also did not switch teams and was there in their 3rd plus year together. Not leaving out the most important part, during an off season, with no testing allowed?

I will say both Lando and Carlos are very fast drivers that is not my argument.
But If Carlos had stayed at Mclaren the results would have been the same or very similar to last year. Maybe Lando gained a tenth which even that seems unlikely during an off season, (in season yes) but not half a second all of a sudden during an off season.
What seems to have happened is Ric is struggling to adapt and well off his usual pace.
Some also suggested Stroll upped his game all of a sudden. But then Vettel showed up at Monaco finally.

It’s impossible to quantify improvement in terms of “tenths”... Different cars, different setups, learnings from previous seasons, different conditions at the tracks (temperature, amount of rubber at the racing line, different tire warm up requirements, etc)... To say that Lando is X “tenths” faster than previous year is really conjecture.

What is clear is that he is more confident, not only on the car, but most importantly on himself and what he can do... That is only gained with seat time / miles behind the wheel.

I for one appreciate how he has tackled his F1 career so far, a first rookie year where instead of going for “heroics”, he took care of the car, even if that meant losing positions at the start... No point of going for every gap if your race is ruined in lap 1, making sure that he was finishing those races not only helped the team in terms of points to finish 4th that season, but also allowed him to keep growing as a driver... He probably had close to zero influence in regards to car setup while he was still learning not only what effects some changes have, also how to describe to the team what he needed from the car.

His second season saw an improvement over the first, a bit more confidence, but still cautious, which I argue also helped Mclaren finish 3rd in the standings, he had a great season and even though he was behind Carlos (probably driven by experience more than just outright speed), he held his own during the season and kept improving throughout it while still showing glimpses of great speed in Qualifying... He also managed to do quiet good at the new tracks that were included last season due to Covid (let’s keep in mind that a few of the tracks in his maiden season where probably new to him).

Throughout his first couple of seasons, he kept it outside of the barriers, rarely involved in accidents and those that did happen were mostly outside of his control, that’s one of the best attributes he brought to the team, while been consistent enough to bring home points when the car had the capability of doing so.

He is in his 3rd season and still only 21 years old, he will probably keep developing and honing his skills for at 3-4 years before he starts “peaking”, he will learn from Daniel’s experience and skills... His biggest advantage will be if he can maintain humility and learn from those his racing against and incorporate what they do great into his tool box.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Chicane]

[BMMR61]

It’s correct to discount a driver finding 0.5 pulled out of their wazoo! Lando appears to have mentally taken on some leadership and the change of mindset has made him more assertive. His natural personality is very humble to the point of self effacing but somehow there’s a new steel in him at a youthful 21. I can see if McLaren start next weekend with a strong baseline that he should be in the mix for pole. End of last season we would have settled for halving Merc’s advantage. Still, predictions can make you look foolish. Were McLaren wrong to judge Monaco as a weak track? Or have they made big progress with the development path? Probably a bit of each it’s fair to say. If wrong about Monaco then why not Baku? It certainly looks like their top speed allied to a better planted low speed front end should make them formidable next weekend. But funnier things have happened!

Hey, how is it that the McLaren team forum has far more pages than any other? Excitement mounts.....

[SmallSoldier]

It’s correct to discount a driver finding 0.5 pulled out of their wazoo! Lando appears to have mentally taken on some leadership and the change of mindset has made him more assertive. His natural personality is very humble to the point of self effacing but somehow there’s a new steel in him at a youthful 21. I can see if McLaren start next weekend with a strong baseline that he should be in the mix for pole. End of last season we would have settled for halving Merc’s advantage. Still, predictions can make you look foolish. Were McLaren wrong to judge Monaco as a weak track? Or have they made big progress with the development path? Probably a bit of each it’s fair to say. If wrong about Monaco then why not Baku? It certainly looks like their top speed allied to a better planted low speed front end should make them formidable next weekend. But funnier things have happened!

Hey, how is it that the McLaren team forum has far more pages than any other? Excitement mounts.....

Baku should be a good weekend! But I do expect Mercedes to be back to their expected performance and therefore at the front... I would expect to be ahead of Ferrari with Red Bull been the wild card, they could be Uber quick at Baku or we might be closer to them... Expecting pole for me is a bit too much, but I would welcome the surprise!

If we get one car in P4-P5 I will be really happy

And having more post in this thread is kind of a trend


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[McG]

Daniel has driven complete garbage and done well, just look back to his HRT drives. He dominated Vettel in his first year driving a difficult to drive Renault powered red Bull. I think Lando is exaggerating or playing mind games.

I think his on track confidence is reaching to his mouth temporarily (I hope).

He's been getting cockier over the past month including a poorly phrased interview in which he doesn't care that Daniel is struggling. He should care as he needs his team to be up there with Ferrari, and because he could learn from a stiff challange from Ricci.

I'm all for being ruthless on track, not so much for being a tw*t off it. He seems to be moulding towards Max Verstappen in his forthright views. I hope it stops and he gets over his own successes, because he's not actually achieved that much in F1 yet, no disrespect intended.

So it's went from an interview where he didn't use sentences to satisfy the wallflowers among us to him being a tw*t?

[Mclarensenna]

Could be, these things take time to contextualise. 2021 has shown that Carlos was/is faster than everyone thought and much faster than some thought. He schooled Lando on race craft who was slightly ahead on qualifying and now he is adding the important parts to the equation. It’s generally believed that Lando upped his game this year and is now close to Carlos therefore not much off Charles. He also at 21 has room to improve so is on track to be a serious contender within the next 2-5 years hence the contract extension last week.

yes everybody seems to believe that Lando has upped his game this year. Your first year in F1 sees the biggest gains, maybe a few tenths maybe half a second depending on how much room you had to improve. 2nd year maybe a tenth or 2. Then the law of diminishing returns set in. But 1 thing that is extremely unlikely is somehow Lando found half a second plus magically during an off season (3 months or whatever it was) with no testing allowed. It is basically almost impossible.


Show me an F1 driver with who did not switch teams in their 3rd year somehow gain half a second on his team mate who also did not switch teams and was there in their 3rd plus year together. Not leaving out the most important part, during an off season, with no testing allowed?

I will say both Lando and Carlos are very fast drivers that is not my argument.
But If Carlos had stayed at Mclaren the results would have been the same or very similar to last year. Maybe Lando gained a tenth which even that seems unlikely during an off season, (in season yes) but not half a second all of a sudden during an off season.
What seems to have happened is Ric is struggling to adapt and well off his usual pace.
Some also suggested Stroll upped his game all of a sudden. But then Vettel showed up at Monaco finally.

It’s impossible to quantify improvement in terms of “tenths”... Different cars, different setups, learnings from previous seasons, different conditions at the tracks (temperature, amount of rubber at the racing line, different tire warm up requirements, etc)... To say that Lando is X “tenths” faster than previous year is really conjecture.

What is clear is that he is more confident, not only on the car, but most importantly on himself and what he can do... That is only gained with seat time / miles behind the wheel.

I for one appreciate how he has tackled his F1 career so far, a first rookie year where instead of going for “heroics”, he took care of the car, even if that meant losing positions at the start... No point of going for every gap if your race is ruined in lap 1, making sure that he was finishing those races not only helped the team in terms of points to finish 4th that season, but also allowed him to keep growing as a driver... He probably had close to zero influence in regards to car setup while he was still learning not only what effects some changes have, also how to describe to the team what he needed from the car.

His second season saw an improvement over the first, a bit more confidence, but still cautious, which I argue also helped Mclaren finish 3rd in the standings, he had a great season and even though he was behind Carlos (probably driven by experience more than just outright speed), he held his own during the season and kept improving throughout it while still showing glimpses of great speed in Qualifying... He also managed to do quiet good at the new tracks that were included last season due to Covid (let’s keep in mind that a few of the tracks in his maiden season where probably new to him).

Throughout his first couple of seasons, he kept it outside of the barriers, rarely involved in accidents and those that did happen were mostly outside of his control, that’s one of the best attributes he brought to the team, while been consistent enough to bring home points when the car had the capability of doing so.

He is in his 3rd season and still only 21 years old, he will probably keep developing and honing his skills for at 3-4 years before he starts “peaking”, he will learn from Daniel’s experience and skills... His biggest advantage will be if he can maintain humility and learn from those his racing against and incorporate what they do great into his tool box.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I got a few replies to this post and appreciate some good input and some good points from everybody.
The main point i made though everybody has completely misquoted and completely misunderstood.

My point is Lando over a 2 year period and 38 race weekends with Carlos seems to have improved of course. We talking 38 races, 38 qualifying sessions, and 80+ practise sessions.

And yes the most improvement in speed and laptime is achieved during the first year and second year then tapers off.
Now what i am talking about is not confidence, less crashes or anything of that sort as thing you can mature even after 15 years in this area and Lando has improved this year it seems sure. Please do not misquote me saying drivers cannot improve and mature. I am just referring to all out race pace and qualifying pace. Laptime raw pace.

That we do not see big improvements in a drivers 3rd year in F1 in the same team and environment.
Remember also Mclaren is a great fun team that made Norris feel at home from day 1. Jumps in performance could possibly be seen switching teams, or switching management if previous was terrible, or massively changing the concept of the car which you hated previously. This could see noticeable gains in lap time from EXTREME changes like this.
Nothing EXTREME has changed in the 3rd year at Mclaren everything is super stable hence my analysis.

So my point is very clear. Lando seems half a second plus quicker than Ric in race pace most races and qualifying even up to a 1 second some laps even we have seen. And some people are suggesting Lando has gained this half a second plus not RIc is struggling to find this half a second plus.

And my point is show me a driver who gained half a second plus during an off season holidaying from the 13th of Dec 2020 Ahbu Dhabi, to the 28th of March with only 3 half days in the car testing/practising.

Certain people are suggesting Lando gained more lap time (half a second plus) on a 3 month holiday then he did in 38 FULL RACE weekends over a FULL 2 year F1 (initial) period which I would estimate at say 3 tenths.

Lando is a very fast driver sure. But he did not gain more laptime on holidays relaxing then he did after 2 years and 38 full race weekends. Ric is struggling and dropped off. That is the only logical conclusion as drivers have in history struggled and dropped off swapping teams. There is evidence of this happening throughout F1 history. But zero evidence of the opposite happening with a driver gaining more speed (half a second plus) in an off season holiday period then 2 previous years (say 3 tenths). (rough estimates)

If people still believe this please show me a previous (similar) example of this happening in F1 history? And I mean has to be the similar as I have been very specific in my analysis and the exact impossible conditions that this has occurred.
As yes I say its impossible. Its never happened before and never will.

[Mclarensenna]

yes everybody seems to believe that Lando has upped his game this year. Your first year in F1 sees the biggest gains, maybe a few tenths maybe half a second depending on how much room you had to improve. 2nd year maybe a tenth or 2. Then the law of diminishing returns set in. But 1 thing that is extremely unlikely is somehow Lando found half a second plus magically during an off season (3 months or whatever it was) with no testing allowed. It is basically almost impossible.


Show me an F1 driver with who did not switch teams in their 3rd year somehow gain half a second on his team mate who also did not switch teams and was there in their 3rd plus year together. Not leaving out the most important part, during an off season, with no testing allowed?

I will say both Lando and Carlos are very fast drivers that is not my argument.
But If Carlos had stayed at Mclaren the results would have been the same or very similar to last year. Maybe Lando gained a tenth which even that seems unlikely during an off season, (in season yes) but not half a second all of a sudden during an off season.
What seems to have happened is Ric is struggling to adapt and well off his usual pace.
Some also suggested Stroll upped his game all of a sudden. But then Vettel showed up at Monaco finally.

It’s impossible to quantify improvement in terms of “tenths”... Different cars, different setups, learnings from previous seasons, different conditions at the tracks (temperature, amount of rubber at the racing line, different tire warm up requirements, etc)... To say that Lando is X “tenths” faster than previous year is really conjecture.

What is clear is that he is more confident, not only on the car, but most importantly on himself and what he can do... That is only gained with seat time / miles behind the wheel.

I for one appreciate how he has tackled his F1 career so far, a first rookie year where instead of going for “heroics”, he took care of the car, even if that meant losing positions at the start... No point of going for every gap if your race is ruined in lap 1, making sure that he was finishing those races not only helped the team in terms of points to finish 4th that season, but also allowed him to keep growing as a driver... He probably had close to zero influence in regards to car setup while he was still learning not only what effects some changes have, also how to describe to the team what he needed from the car.

His second season saw an improvement over the first, a bit more confidence, but still cautious, which I argue also helped Mclaren finish 3rd in the standings, he had a great season and even though he was behind Carlos (probably driven by experience more than just outright speed), he held his own during the season and kept improving throughout it while still showing glimpses of great speed in Qualifying... He also managed to do quiet good at the new tracks that were included last season due to Covid (let’s keep in mind that a few of the tracks in his maiden season where probably new to him).

Throughout his first couple of seasons, he kept it outside of the barriers, rarely involved in accidents and those that did happen were mostly outside of his control, that’s one of the best attributes he brought to the team, while been consistent enough to bring home points when the car had the capability of doing so.

He is in his 3rd season and still only 21 years old, he will probably keep developing and honing his skills for at 3-4 years before he starts “peaking”, he will learn from Daniel’s experience and skills... His biggest advantage will be if he can maintain humility and learn from those his racing against and incorporate what they do great into his tool box.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I got a few replies to this post and appreciate some good input and some good points from everybody.
The main point i made though everybody has completely misquoted and completely misunderstood.

My point is Lando over a 2 year period and 38 race weekends with Carlos seems to have improved of course. We talking 38 races, 38 qualifying sessions, and 80+ practise sessions.

And yes the most improvement in speed and laptime is achieved during the first year and second year then tapers off.
Now what i am talking about is not confidence, less crashes or anything of that sort as thing you can mature even after 15 years in this area and Lando has improved this year it seems sure. Please do not misquote me saying drivers cannot improve and mature. I am just referring to all out race pace and qualifying pace. Laptime raw pace.

That we do not see big improvements in a drivers 3rd year in F1 in the same team and environment.
Remember also Mclaren is a great fun team that made Norris feel at home from day 1. Jumps in performance could possibly be seen switching teams, or switching management if previous was terrible, or massively changing the concept of the car which you hated previously. This could see noticeable gains in lap time from EXTREME changes like this.
Nothing EXTREME has changed in the 3rd year at Mclaren everything is super stable hence my analysis.

So my point is very clear. Lando seems half a second plus quicker than Ric in race pace most races and qualifying even up to a 1 second some laps even we have seen. And some people are suggesting Lando has gained this half a second plus not RIc is struggling to find this half a second plus.

And my point is show me a driver who gained half a second plus during an off season holidaying from the 13th of Dec 2020 Ahbu Dhabi, to the 28th of March with only 3 half days in the car testing/practising.

Certain people are suggesting Lando gained more lap time (half a second plus) on a 3 month holiday then he did in 38 FULL RACE weekends over a FULL 2 year F1 (initial) period which I would estimate at say 3 tenths.

Lando is a very fast driver sure. But he did not gain more laptime on holidays relaxing then he did after 2 years and 38 full race weekends. Ric is struggling and dropped off. That is the only logical conclusion as drivers have in history struggled and dropped off swapping teams. There is evidence of this happening throughout F1 history. But zero evidence of the opposite happening with a driver gaining more speed (half a second plus) in an off season holiday period then 2 previous years (say 3 tenths). (rough estimates)

If people still believe this please show me a previous (similar) example of this happening in F1 history? And I mean has to be the similar as I have been very specific in my analysis and the exact impossible conditions that this has occurred.
As yes I say its impossible. Its never happened before and never will IMHO