Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

[basti313]

I don't believe this. At least the PU isn't the sole issue for this. Have a look at the speedtraps from Jeddah qualy. The Mercs were as fast as the Ferrari on the straights, pointing to similar drag levels. Still they lost out in every corner, pointing to a downforce deficit. So the Merc is simply inefficient, aero wise.


If we take the speed trap into account and compare RB (335.1km/h) with the Merc (327.1) that's a difference of 2.5% in drag. Now, drag scales exponentially with speed. So to get 2,5% additional speed, you'd need to overcome 5% additional dragn and thus need 5% extra power. At 1000hp that's ~50hp extra and the Mercs are still slower overall... I believe this theory is wrong. Even if the engine is a bit weaker than Honda and Ferrari, the Merc is inferior when it comes to drag and downforce.

Well, in fact, the Mercedes engineer says this, that the motor deficit is only 0.1-0.2 seconds, everything else is on the chassis side. That is why customers do not blame their supplier.

Yes, this is supported by the race top speeds.
Once the Merc in slipstream with DRS, the top speed deficit vanishes. This supports the theory that the drag comes from the rear wing.

[henry]

#AMuS Some experts believe the huge Mercedes deficit is coming from PU.

I don't believe this. At least the PU isn't the sole issue for this. Have a look at the speedtraps from Jeddah qualy. The Mercs were as fast as the Ferrari on the straights, pointing to similar drag levels. Still they lost out in every corner, pointing to a downforce deficit. So the Merc is simply inefficient, aero wise.


If we take the speed trap into account and compare RB (335.1km/h) with the Merc (327.1) that's a difference of 2.5% in drag. Now, drag scales exponentially with speed. So to get 2,5% additional speed, you'd need to overcome 5% additional dragn and thus need 5% extra power. At 1000hp that's ~50hp extra and the Mercs are still slower overall... I believe this theory is wrong. Even if the engine is a bit weaker than Honda and Ferrari, the Merc is inferior when it comes to drag and downforce.

A useful comparison, however drag goes up with speed squared but power by speed cubed. So the power deficit if it were only PU would be 8%. Even more improbable.

[saviour stivala]

The four 2022 F1 power units are certainly the closest together they have ever been. But the Mercedes dominance seems to have evaporated completely.

[Tzk]

A useful comparison, however drag goes up with speed squared but power by speed cubed. So the power deficit if it were only PU would be 8%. Even more improbable.

Thanks for the correction and i agree. 8%, which is about 80hp in qualy trim, is wayyy too much. I suspect the three PUs (Merc, Ferrari, Honda) are more or less equal with Renault a bit behind. The deficit stems mainly from aero and/or chassis.

[basti313]

A useful comparison, however drag goes up with speed squared but power by speed cubed. So the power deficit if it were only PU would be 8%. Even more improbable.

Thanks for the correction and i agree. 8%, which is about 80hp in qualy trim, is wayyy too much. I suspect the three PUs (Merc, Ferrari, Honda) are more or less equal with Renault a bit behind. The deficit stems mainly from aero and/or chassis.

Why do you think Renault is behind? We have not much comparison, but I did not see anything that gives the impression they are behind in power. It seems they are behind in reliability, but this is dangerous as with reliability upgrades they might even get on top.

I totally agree on the point that the three are very similar. In the speed traps with DRS an a bit of slipstream to help in the acceleration in the race it was very equal and there was nothing to see that any engine has generally a poor acceleration phase, clipping or needed to manage the power a lot in any point of the race.

[mclaren_mircea]

If it is the engine than it is Mercedes fault. They talk just about cost savings and cost savings. The same as in 2010-2012 when was Norbert Haug in charge. Now since Kallenius is the CEO they want cost saving on chassis, cost savings on engine cost savings on drivers etc, engine freezing etc. And why they accepted the engine freezing now backfirest. They could have put Red Bull with the back at the wall: take it or leave it (an engine customer deal) and not to think about what Helmuth was saying. Maybe Im speaking because of anger and sadness but they were fooled with the engine freezing. The next big blow will be when they will let Red Bull gain huge amount of extra time on dyno and extra money with the engine for 2026 because they are newcomers.

[AMG.Tzan]

If Mercedes' deficit truly comes from the PU, is there anything they can do now to solve that??

If their problem is battery or MGU-K related they can, since these components are frozen by September I think! But if it's the fuel for example that is the problem then they're pretty much done for the next 4 seasons...

Any guesses if they're just running the PU a bit detuned for reliability reasons?? There are some rumors that Ferrari are doing the same yet Ferrari's PU is already way faster than Mercedes'...

[Mattchu]

Lets get a little perspective here! Mercedes engine was the class of the field by a long way when these new hybrid power units came into play.
The thing is staff don`t stay there forever, plus they have/had a boat load of short term contractors, they move to other manufacturers taking with them pretty much all the secrets that made the unit better than the rest. Brixworth have also downsized the F1 full time staff considerably in the last few years, most of the sub-contractors have gone, F1 is generally cyclic, maybe it`s just someone elses turn!

This is just the way it is when the same units have been used for many years, the companies involved will, I`m pretty sure, know full well what the others have.

Maybe the new E10 fuel is making a bit of difference (can Petronas still change this?), maybe the new layout needs a lot more testing time until the higher maps are used...we don`t know, but I don`t think the engine is that far off, I`d go as far to say that they will all have converged now, they have been around since 2014...

[saviour stivala]

''Maybe the new E10 fuel is making a bit of difference (Can Petronasstill change this?). Both fuel and oil are now homologated (locked).

[NicoS]

Power unit has no budget cap.

I am not sure that this is true, but even if it was, there are still time constraints since they spent so much time trying to fix reliability issues for last year's PU.

There isn't a PU budget cap. Never has been. Teams can spend unlimited budget and man power on it. It's all moot now because engines are frozen.

understood, no develolpment allowed, thus no need to impose monetary restriction.

[matteosc]

Power unit has no budget cap.

I am not sure that this is true, but even if it was, there are still time constraints since they spent so much time trying to fix reliability issues for last year's PU.

There isn't a PU budget cap. Never has been. Teams can spend unlimited budget and man power on it. It's all moot now because engines are frozen.

That is why I said "but even if it was".

[dans79]

I am not sure that this is true, but even if it was, there are still time constraints since they spent so much time trying to fix reliability issues for last year's PU.

There isn't a PU budget cap. Never has been. Teams can spend unlimited budget and man power on it. It's all moot now because engines are frozen.

That is why I said "but even if it was".

You still have the giant loophole of reliability fixes.

[SSScoffee]

Mercedes was the class of the field when it came to Engine, but even with diminishing returns, i find it odd that Ferrari and honda have leapfrogged Mercedes. Honda Had planned it's "big" upgrade for 2022 but brought it foward one year, Ferrari had it's big upgrade this year, same as Renault. And were does that leave Mercedes? They said the engine changed the most since 2014, yet they seem to be lacking HP. Are the rumors that the engine is running low on power true? Are Mercedes playing 4D chess and planning a ""reliability"" upgrade that boosts them to the top? Maybe they underestimated E10 fuel, who knows...

[matteosc]

There isn't a PU budget cap. Never has been. Teams can spend unlimited budget and man power on it. It's all moot now because engines are frozen.

That is why I said "but even if it was".

You still have the giant loophole of reliability fixes.

I am not saying that they cannot recover, I am just saying that they were not able to focus enough on this year's changes. To be precise I said that I think they focus only on trying to recover what they lost with the new regulations instead of exploring all possibility.
By the way, I think this is similar to what happened in 2021 with the floor changes. We all know that they were able to recover between pre-season testing and the first race, last year. I think this year they are a little more behind and it will take them a little longer to figure it out and fix it.

[NicoS]

Mercedes was the class of the field when it came to Engine, but even with diminishing returns, i find it odd that Ferrari and honda have leapfrogged Mercedes. Honda Had planned it's "big" upgrade for 2022 but brought it foward one year, Ferrari had it's big upgrade this year, same as Renault. And were does that leave Mercedes? They said the engine changed the most since 2014, yet they seem to be lacking HP. Are the rumors that the engine is running low on power true? Are Mercedes playing 4D chess and planning a ""reliability"" upgrade that boosts them to the top? Maybe they underestimated E10 fuel, who knows...

Can they do "reliability" "upgrade" if they do not have "reliability" problems. If they do manage to do "upgrade" without problems they would be considered liars by many.