2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[darkpino]

Maybe I am too much into sim racing, but is it really that hard to make one car more understeer and another one more oversteer according to driver's demands? They have camber, they have toe, they have rear wing, they have differentail... they have a lot of opportunities to set up car for particular guy I think...

The difference between simracing and racing in real life is that the different parameters like toe and camber behave like you expect. In real life there can be something wrong aerodynamic wise which makes the car for example extremely oversteering when the rake is higher than X or the you can for example get massive understeer when the ride height is lower than Y.

The same can happen with mechanical parameters: for example when the suspension travels more than X it changes the camber excessively but you don’t notice yet as it only happens once in a race for example. That makes the big difference between sim and real life. There’s some other aspects but I think that’s the main difference.

Regarding not buying that a car is designed around a certain driver style: I don’t think it’s not possible for an understeering car to tune it oversteering for example only thing is that it takes a lot of time to find the right spot IF you can find it as the car is designed around a certain vision. Regarding every driver wanting a balanced car: yes, but here comes sim experience not every driver has the same definition of balanced. That really depends on driving style. For example Vettel really wants a planted rear, maybe because he gets on the throttle mid corner when car is still rotating while Alonso seems to be more a driver who makes the car rotate and then gets on throttle (at least in his Renault days).

[Wouter]

Max Verstappen drives across Palermo in a never-seen-before road trip. He discovers the Sicilian capital and its iconic places from the Ballarò market to Mondello beach before setting off for the Italian Grand Prix in a very unusual way!

I doubt this is Max, but nice video.

[seense]

Definitely not Max. Drivers head is too low. Looks like Yuki to me. Yuki lives in Italy right?

Max demo in Zandvoort:

[NathanOlder]

Its a myth that a car is built solely arround the needs of a single driver. No racing driver would demand a car to be build with excessive understeer or oversteer because it's detrimental. A well designed racing car is balanced and neutral with preferably a very slight tendency for understeer, not oversteer. I do not believe anyone who would claim to want a racing car to oversteer a lot or have a loose rear. Its such a tiring myth. I remember when Schumacher was dominating these stories would popup about how the car was fully build for him and others where unable to drive it because it was so loose etc. Now the same thing is said about Red Bull and Verstappen. Its just not true.

I am new here btw. Been reading for many many years but got a little tired of reading untruths so wanted to post my 2 cents. Not a Red Bull fan, but this thread is most fun to read.

Isn't the phrase of cars being designed to a drivers needs/style a little to different to what most people think?

As an example, RedBull build a car, they roll out at testing for the first test. Bth drivers put the car through its paces. They don't work on setup too much to begin with, they just check the car works as planned and get a general feel for it.
After the first test is complete, the engineers will record every single word the driver says, every detail, every hand gesture. All the info is taken back to base and looked at in great detail. Now If Max and Sergio give different views on what needs addressing, and what the car could be better at. Which driver do they hold as a higher value and a better route to persue ? Obviously the team leader/number 1 driver. So after the first big update for the 2nd test or even a big update for the usual round of Barcelona it would be the number 1 driver that gets his minor issues addressed and the car will be aimed at 1 driver more than the other.

If you have 2 drivers with radically different driving styles, then it will hurt the number 2 driver more than a team that has 2 drivers with similar styles. Surely this is common sense ?

[DChemTech]

For sure it's something well known in the Verstappen family from their benneton days

[TimW]

I think it is not so much what a driver prefers, but more what a driver can cope with.

If a driver is more adaptable, that gives the engineers more freedom in designing the car, and they can use that freedom to make a faster car. On the other hand of a driver cannot handle certain traits, that forces the engineers to go a certain route.

With the front wing regulation changes the RBs suffered from instability at the rear. Max handled that better then his teammates. In a recent interview Newey praised Max' ability to handle a neutral car with a slightly loose rear end. If he could not deal with it, the engineers would be forced to improve it, even at the cost of overall (theoretical) performance.

[godlameroso]

It's a moot point to discuss if a car is built to a driver's style. Engineers simply put ideas together that makes a car goes faster. There are some drivers who have a set style of driving and there are others who adapt. Some cars concepts are just naturally easy to drive and some end up taking a lot of effort to extract performance, which only certain drivers can do.

Looking at struggles that Ricci is having at McLaren, i have a hunch he would have struggled at RB too from 2019 with the concept change at RB due to front wing regulation changes. Just like the trio of drivers that have struggled after him. It's just that Max has adapted, albeit with a lot of pain. No driver wants unpredictable car and so is Max. But if the fundamentals of design have a certain directional flaw and according to engineers it's delivering performance, then drivers have to adapt.

For anyone to say, a car is built for a driver's preference, even if Horner allegedly have said, deceives common sense of engineering. Set up can be tweaked to help a driver's preference, but not the design of a car.

I agree, something changed in Verstappen around mid 2019. Like a switch had been turned on.

[Ryar]

Now If Max and Sergio give different views on what needs addressing, and what the car could be better at. Which driver do they hold as a higher value and a better route to persue ? Obviously the team leader/number 1 driver.

Whosoever's feedback makes engineering sense to the engineers and designers and obviously the data (collected from the thousands of sensors) backing up what that driver is saying. If, hypothetically speaking, the lead driver talks crap and the data points in the opposite direction, it's given that an engineer laughs his a** off and do what he thinks is right based on the data.

In a time and age where there are tools available to map the performance to the nth degree, engineers know what the car is doing from all the data they get and driver's feedback just provides confirmation of the problem, if any. It's rare to see (or have heard) where two drivers in the same team providing conflicting feedback of the problems they see. Just that the guy adapting better, is working around the problem, but quite certainly, he would be feeling the same problem which is limiting the other driver. I doubt if the drivers are part of the inner sanctum of the engineers and designers when they are conceiving ideas and designs for a new car. By the time drivers sits in the cock pit to drive and then provide feedback, the car is done in terms of it's DNA! Whoever adapts to the unintended consequences, gains the most. The upgrades are just bolted to either to cure the unintended consequences of that design, if that is making handling difficult or to simply add more performance.

[Ryar]

It's a moot point to discuss if a car is built to a driver's style. Engineers simply put ideas together that makes a car goes faster. There are some drivers who have a set style of driving and there are others who adapt. Some cars concepts are just naturally easy to drive and some end up taking a lot of effort to extract performance, which only certain drivers can do.

Looking at struggles that Ricci is having at McLaren, i have a hunch he would have struggled at RB too from 2019 with the concept change at RB due to front wing regulation changes. Just like the trio of drivers that have struggled after him. It's just that Max has adapted, albeit with a lot of pain. No driver wants unpredictable car and so is Max. But if the fundamentals of design have a certain directional flaw and according to engineers it's delivering performance, then drivers have to adapt.

For anyone to say, a car is built for a driver's preference, even if Horner allegedly have said, deceives common sense of engineering. Set up can be tweaked to help a driver's preference, but not the design of a car.

I agree, something changed in Verstappen around mid 2019. Like a switch had been turned on.

IMO, it was the second half of 2018 to be precise where Max changed as a driver.

[Just_a_fan]

I think it is not so much what a driver prefers, but more what a driver can cope with.

Exactly. The best seem to be the most adaptable. Button was quick when the car was spot on but openly admitted (after he retired) that he wasn't so good in a car that wasn't to his taste. Max, like Hamilton, Schumacher Snr, Senna, and the top drivers before them, seems to be able to carry speed even if the car isn't as he would like it. Make it exactly as he'd like it, and he'll be that last bit quicker, of course.

Dela Rosa has said that, when he was working with Alonso and Hamilton in 2007, the thing that impressed him was how both of them were able to carry speed in to a corner even if the balance wasn't quite there - particularly as the tyres wore. He said lots of drivers can be quick over a single lap even if the car isn't spot on, but the likes of Alonso etc., are able to keep being quick for many laps. We see that in races today - Max and Lewis, for example, often just walk away from the their team mates, even if those team mates stay with them for a brief period when tyres are fresh.

I guess that's why some drivers are called "quick" and others are "quick on his day". The latter being quick only when everything was as they wanted it.

Mario Andretti said "if everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough". That seems to sum up this issue for most drivers.

[Just_a_fan]

Now If Max and Sergio give different views on what needs addressing, and what the car could be better at. Which driver do they hold as a higher value and a better route to persue ? Obviously the team leader/number 1 driver.

Whosoever's feedback makes engineering sense to the engineers and designers and obviously the data (collected from the thousands of sensors) backing up what that driver is saying. If, hypothetically speaking, the lead driver talks crap and the data points in the opposite direction, it's given that an engineer laughs his a** off and do what he thinks is right based on the data.

In a time and age where there are tools available to map the performance to the nth degree, engineers know what the car is doing from all the data they get and driver's feedback just provides confirmation of the problem, if any. It's rare to see (or have heard) where two drivers in the same team providing conflicting feedback of the problems they see. Just that the guy adapting better, is working around the problem, but quite certainly, he would be feeling the same problem which is limiting the other driver. I doubt if the drivers are part of the inner sanctum of the engineers and designers when they are conceiving ideas and designs for a new car. By the time drivers sits in the cock pit to drive and then provide feedback, the car is done in terms of it's DNA! Whoever adapts to the unintended consequences, gains the most. The upgrades are just bolted to either to cure the unintended consequences of that design, if that is making handling difficult or to simply add more performance.

The race engineer's job is as much about making the driver feel confident in the car as it is making the car itself faster. If the driver is confident he is quick. If he's not sure what the car is doing, he'll be slow. The changes made to set up are to give the driver the feel and confidence to push. A car that, for example, changes its balance from corner to corner is difficult to drive because the driver doesn't know what to expect when he goes through a given corner. Making the car predictable is where the engineer helps the driver.

[etusch]

I still want to keep going giving examples from Alonso. When he was at renault for the second time as team mate of Piquet, piquet was saying that; when he brake earlier than alonso he is slower, when he brake as late as Alo did then he struggle to keep car in balance and struggle at exit of turns and can not be as fast as Alo at exit of turns.
So Perez can look what Verstappen is doing at the entry and exits of turns to try what Verstappen does but it can be odd for his muscle brain which tries to do things like Perez used to do. This is what you encounter when you come a winning car from a midlevel car.
Another example from Alonso is his comments about Alphine's steering wheel feel or lack of feel which prevents him to feel front tyre grip level. So Perez's natural driving habit seeks feelings he used to have at midlevel cars and tries to react like he used to but they don't work with redbull.

[Wouter]

[Gillian]

Its a myth that a car is built solely arround the needs of a single driver. No racing driver would demand a car to be build with excessive understeer or oversteer because it's detrimental. A well designed racing car is balanced and neutral with preferably a very slight tendency for understeer, not oversteer. I do not believe anyone who would claim to want a racing car to oversteer a lot or have a loose rear. Its such a tiring myth. I remember when Schumacher was dominating these stories would popup about how the car was fully build for him and others where unable to drive it because it was so loose etc. Now the same thing is said about Red Bull and Verstappen. Its just not true.

I am new here btw. Been reading for many many years but got a little tired of reading untruths so wanted to post my 2 cents. Not a Red Bull fan, but this thread is most fun to read.

Isn't the phrase of cars being designed to a drivers needs/style a little to different to what most people think?

As an example, RedBull build a car, they roll out at testing for the first test. Bth drivers put the car through its paces. They don't work on setup too much to begin with, they just check the car works as planned and get a general feel for it.
After the first test is complete, the engineers will record every single word the driver says, every detail, every hand gesture. All the info is taken back to base and looked at in great detail. Now If Max and Sergio give different views on what needs addressing, and what the car could be better at. Which driver do they hold as a higher value and a better route to persue ? Obviously the team leader/number 1 driver. So after the first big update for the 2nd test or even a big update for the usual round of Barcelona it would be the number 1 driver that gets his minor issues addressed and the car will be aimed at 1 driver more than the other.

If you have 2 drivers with radically different driving styles, then it will hurt the number 2 driver more than a team that has 2 drivers with similar styles. Surely this is common sense ?

Much has been said already and I agree with most of it. The thing I would want to emphasize is there are no radically different driving styles in a single motorsport. There are subtle differences. A good example is how early Verstappen brakes. You can barely see it, yet it is discussed as an extreme difference in driving.

The differences you see is how well a driver can anticipate what his car is going to do and how well he is in reacting to unexpected behaviour. That's why the best drivers do so well in wet racing. That's also why I think Vettel was so good with the V8 bull, not just because it was really planted but because it was extremely predictable. He seems to struggle a bit since the turbo era (high torque from ERS, less predictable).

In my opinion the thing that matters most is to build the fastest car. I see no reason why a constructor would not have that as highest priority. So if 2 drivers request different things, then surely nothing that would be detrimental for the ultimate speed would be obliged. At that point it would not matter if it was driver 1 or 2 who requested it.

[godlameroso]

It's a moot point to discuss if a car is built to a driver's style. Engineers simply put ideas together that makes a car goes faster. There are some drivers who have a set style of driving and there are others who adapt. Some cars concepts are just naturally easy to drive and some end up taking a lot of effort to extract performance, which only certain drivers can do.

Looking at struggles that Ricci is having at McLaren, i have a hunch he would have struggled at RB too from 2019 with the concept change at RB due to front wing regulation changes. Just like the trio of drivers that have struggled after him. It's just that Max has adapted, albeit with a lot of pain. No driver wants unpredictable car and so is Max. But if the fundamentals of design have a certain directional flaw and according to engineers it's delivering performance, then drivers have to adapt.

For anyone to say, a car is built for a driver's preference, even if Horner allegedly have said, deceives common sense of engineering. Set up can be tweaked to help a driver's preference, but not the design of a car.

I agree, something changed in Verstappen around mid 2019. Like a switch had been turned on.

IMO, it was the second half of 2018 to be precise where Max changed as a driver.

You're probably right, the way he won Austria in 2018 was a very mature drive. We have seen him take several steps since then.