Racing Point RP20

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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nico5 wrote:
11 Aug 2020, 18:24
SiLo wrote:
11 Aug 2020, 12:03
nico5 wrote:
10 Aug 2020, 19:21


Well, if they get summoned by the FIA and delibreately lie to them, as Lewis did in Australia 2009, there are consequences usually.
You know you can run an illegal car in pre-season testing right? RP still provided proof that they changed the design somewhat, the FIA just weren't happy that they changed them enough to consider it their own design.
Yeah, but that happened like in July. What if those parts were also there, say, in Australia? Once again, I'm not discussing the legality of the thing itself. But the whole process they went through is clearly in bad faith. I remember Tombazis saying they hadn't even checked RP's brake ducts before Renault's protest, which makes the FIA look just short of a bunch of incompetents.
What all teams want is governance not a dictatorship... imagine if you told Usain bolt he was going to be drug tested 3 times a week, that would be a horrible environment for him to perform in his sport. Same rules- if you had an F1 team and FiA delegates doing loads of surprise inspections and rules checks and investigations how would the team start feeling- it would be Draconian.. you have to 'trust' people to operate within the rules or in good faith, otherwise you just go around bashing everyone with a huge rulebook and nobody wants that. Not the FiA's fault....
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Racing Point RP20

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More over.. on the Sky reports over the weekend, Toto said that he knew that teams were photographing the Merecedes in front of their garage LAST season, he said this in exact words...
He said its clear 'which team' was doing this.....
Now either this is a brilliant smoke screen by him to claim that RP did everything by photos (no-way...)
Or if it did happen...
Why did he not protest or inform the FiA that people were trying to steal Merc's intellectual property?
Why?
Why only say this now??
IT ALL SOUNDS FISHY!
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

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SiLo
138
Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: Racing Point RP20

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PowerandtheGlory wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 09:56
More over.. on the Sky reports over the weekend, Toto said that he knew that teams were photographing the Merecedes in front of their garage LAST season, he said this in exact words...
He said its clear 'which team' was doing this.....
Now either this is a brilliant smoke screen by him to claim that RP did everything by photos (no-way...)
Or if it did happen...
Why did he not protest or inform the FiA that people were trying to steal Merc's intellectual property?
Why?
Why only say this now??
IT ALL SOUNDS FISHY!
Protest what?

"That team took photos of our car!"
"And?"
"Well... they are clearly trying to steal from us!"
"Steal what? Anyone is allowed to take a photo of your car at these events."
"..."
"Has your team taken any pictures of other teams cars in the paddock?"
"..."
"Thought so."


Is how I imagine that conversation would go.
Felipe Baby!

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Wouter
111
Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: Racing Point RP20

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The Power of Dreams!

XRayF1
XRayF1
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Joined: 20 Feb 2014, 10:08

Re: Racing Point RP20

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PowerandtheGlory wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 09:56
More over.. on the Sky reports over the weekend, Toto said that he knew that teams were photographing the Merecedes in front of their garage LAST season, he said this in exact words...
He said its clear 'which team' was doing this.....
Now either this is a brilliant smoke screen by him to claim that RP did everything by photos (no-way...)
Or if it did happen...
Why did he not protest or inform the FiA that people were trying to steal Merc's intellectual property?
Why?
Why only say this now??
IT ALL SOUNDS FISHY!
Not defending or commenting on Wolff, but to point out.

Taking photographs in the pit lane during testing and race weekends is a standard process. It is part of the game. This is how you learn as well.

Secondly, by photographing other cars you do not steal IPR per se.
As some people, also in this forum, have pointed out, copying one item 1:1 does not give you the same gains than for the copied team. Hence the need for modification of this aero item to suit your needs, thus removing the IPR question altogehter.
Unless you adapt your aero philosophy, like copying the complete car - which RP did.

However, there are classic photos, and there is photogrammetry.
With photogrammetry you can actually digitize a 3D object, which level of detail only depends on the amount of data you can collect and process. Picture a professional high res camera with a high frame rate taking photos from various angles of an object (200 MP + 6-8k fps = Dynamic Photogrammetry).
This gives you the possibility to build the exterior of the car rather easily, even very detailed (and the object may not even be required to remain static during the takes).

But not the interior.
Which makes sense on why Renault actually chose the brake ducts for a protest.
One reason for sure was the change from unlisted to being a listed part.
The other ...

I would understand it as well that Renault accepts 'photography' of any sort part of the game ...

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El Scorchio
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Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 12:41

Re: Racing Point RP20

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Absolutely hilarious that Ferrari are protesting on the grounds the punishment was too lenient, given how they made out stupidly well with their 'secret deal' with the FIA over their engine last season. Such extraordinary levels of hypocrisy...

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Big Tea
99
Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Racing Point RP20

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PowerandtheGlory wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 09:56
More over.. on the Sky reports over the weekend, Toto said that he knew that teams were photographing the Merecedes in front of their garage LAST season, he said this in exact words...
He said its clear 'which team' was doing this.....
Now either this is a brilliant smoke screen by him to claim that RP did everything by photos (no-way...)
Or if it did happen...
Why did he not protest or inform the FiA that people were trying to steal Merc's intellectual property?
Why?
Why only say this now??
IT ALL SOUNDS FISHY!
I am quite sure Merc would be happy to see a competitor copy their LAST years car
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
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Joined: 27 Feb 2019, 10:52

Re: Racing Point RP20

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SiLo wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 10:33
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 09:56
More over.. on the Sky reports over the weekend, Toto said that he knew that teams were photographing the Merecedes in front of their garage LAST season, he said this in exact words...
He said its clear 'which team' was doing this.....
Now either this is a brilliant smoke screen by him to claim that RP did everything by photos (no-way...)
Or if it did happen...
Why did he not protest or inform the FiA that people were trying to steal Merc's intellectual property?
Why?
Why only say this now??
IT ALL SOUNDS FISHY!
Protest what?

"That team took photos of our car!"
"And?"
"Well... they are clearly trying to steal from us!"
"Steal what? Anyone is allowed to take a photo of your car at these events."
"..."
"Has your team taken any pictures of other teams cars in the paddock?"
"..."
"Thought so."


Is how I imagine that conversation would go.
Ive got conversation for you...

"Errr Toto.... somebody is stood right outside our pit garage with a camera taking photos.... he isnt a fan or a press photographer...?"

"Yaa Yaa zat is a friend of mine he is buying an f1 team and we are going to sell him some parts and let him use our wind tunnel and we will also borrow him brake ducts in case his own car is not ready becoz we are wonderful sporting people who care about f1 and we def are not making a lot of money from him... "

But we designed our car and they are stood outside our garage... "

"Yaa but ze will not worry about that becoz it will really piss off ferrari and renault and redbull and it will also help build the Aston Brand in F1.. and if they sell more road cars zat izz good for Mercedes as they will buy more engines from us for their cars.."

"But should they really be copying our car completely?

"We are Mercedes and we are bigger than F1 and we can control F1 how we like it.... ya ya ya... We will show the Fia that we are the biggest player in the sport "

What if the Merc engined teams like Mclaren and Williams Protest?

" Yaa Yaa i will tell them to stop and they will... because again "we' control F1..."
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

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jjn9128
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Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: Racing Point RP20

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PowerandtheGlory wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 12:49
You DO realise the FIA banned screens in the pits in testing to allow competitors to photograph one another to copy bit and close the field up?!

Maybe you'd like to read the official decision,

the sporting regulations,

and the technical rules

before you comment further, because frankly it's clear you don't know anything about the rules.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Racing Point RP20

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PowerandtheGlory wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 12:49
SiLo wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 10:33
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 09:56
More over.. on the Sky reports over the weekend, Toto said that he knew that teams were photographing the Merecedes in front of their garage LAST season, he said this in exact words...
He said its clear 'which team' was doing this.....
Now either this is a brilliant smoke screen by him to claim that RP did everything by photos (no-way...)
Or if it did happen...
Why did he not protest or inform the FiA that people were trying to steal Merc's intellectual property?
Why?
Why only say this now??
IT ALL SOUNDS FISHY!
Protest what?

"That team took photos of our car!"
"And?"
"Well... they are clearly trying to steal from us!"
"Steal what? Anyone is allowed to take a photo of your car at these events."
"..."
"Has your team taken any pictures of other teams cars in the paddock?"
"..."
"Thought so."


Is how I imagine that conversation would go.
Ive got conversation for you...

"Errr Toto.... somebody is stood right outside our pit garage with a camera taking photos.... he isnt a fan or a press photographer...?"

"Yaa Yaa zat is a friend of mine he is buying an f1 team and we are going to sell him some parts and let him use our wind tunnel and we will also borrow him brake ducts in case his own car is not ready becoz we are wonderful sporting people who care about f1 and we def are not making a lot of money from him... "

But we designed our car and they are stood outside our garage... "

"Yaa but ze will not worry about that becoz it will really piss off ferrari and renault and redbull and it will also help build the Aston Brand in F1.. and if they sell more road cars zat izz good for Mercedes as they will buy more engines from us for their cars.."

"But should they really be copying our car completely?

"We are Mercedes and we are bigger than F1 and we can control F1 how we like it.... ya ya ya... We will show the Fia that we are the biggest player in the sport "

What if the Merc engined teams like Mclaren and Williams Protest?

" Yaa Yaa i will tell them to stop and they will... because again "we' control F1..."
Would it not be easier for Toto to say, Sure, come and have a look around the factory, bring your camera, no one will see us. I will get a couple engineers to join us and we will go for a pizza and a beer after, bring your recorder too. you can use our copy machine.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
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Joined: 27 Feb 2019, 10:52

Re: Racing Point RP20

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jjn9128 wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 14:04
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 12:49
You DO realise the FIA banned screens in the pits in testing to allow competitors to photograph one another to copy bit and close the field up?!

Maybe you'd like to read the official decision,

the sporting regulations,

and the technical rules

before you comment further, because frankly it's clear you don't know anything about the rules.
They didnt ban them to ‘allow’ people to take photos...
They banned them because it hides the team, like putting a screen up in from of a football dugout..
it would have looked rubbish on netflix

I have read the rules.

I know the cars are technically legal

But the means of achieving this is copying merc intellectual property with little or no amendments..

The whole thing is a clone and im glad the FiA have banned Copycats..

“You should only submit your own work...”
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

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SiLo
138
Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: Racing Point RP20

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But they haven't banned copycats. They have said they will, although I have no idea how they will police it.

Mods - can we remove all these posts that are just either hearsay, or utter guesswork just assuming Mercedes and RP colluded on building a car? There is no proof whatsoever of this happening, and it's getting tiring seeing them everywhere.
Felipe Baby!

V12-POWER
V12-POWER
-4
Joined: 30 May 2015, 05:48

Re: Racing Point RP20

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“There is no proof”

That is if you just don’t want to see.

The car is a 1:1 copy. I get it, it has a few different winglets so maybe not 1:1 but 0.99:1

I’ve never seen such cloning in F1, nobody has ever done such thing and succeeded like racing point did

I’m 100% percent sure the S-Duct has the same internal route as the W10

That they got ALL the data is a fact, it’s now a matter of how well they can cover it up, if they fail it’s gonna be big, if it isn’t, good for racing point I guess

But the proof is there lmao, 1:1 car, HUGE increase in pace/speed, etc

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
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Joined: 27 Feb 2019, 10:52

Re: Racing Point RP20

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SiLo wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 23:45
But they haven't banned copycats. They have said they will, although I have no idea how they will police it.

Mods - can we remove all these posts that are just either hearsay, or utter guesswork just assuming Mercedes and RP colluded on building a car? There is no proof whatsoever of this happening, and it's getting tiring seeing them everywhere.
They have said they will, and that is what will happen.

This is a technical forum and we are debating the current fact that RP have been found guilty of breaking sporting regulations (pending appeal) and the ensuing challenges from the 'non-Mercedes Engined' teams left on the grid...

The proof has already been provided and this formed the basis of the judgement laid down by the FiA. The mere fact that Merc gave RP some brake ducts 'this year' despite not running them, really begs the question of what is going on down there.. and why Senior figures in F1 have called into question Merc's involvement and Toto has got quite rattled..

The rest of the 'posts' as you say are just playful, whimsical musing on the story itself... which will rumble on :wink:
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

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siskue2005
70
Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: Racing Point RP20

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PowerandtheGlory wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 20:59
jjn9128 wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 14:04
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 12:49
You DO realise the FIA banned screens in the pits in testing to allow competitors to photograph one another to copy bit and close the field up?!

Maybe you'd like to read the official decision,

the sporting regulations,

and the technical rules

before you comment further, because frankly it's clear you don't know anything about the rules.
They didnt ban them to ‘allow’ people to take photos...
They banned them because it hides the team, like putting a screen up in from of a football dugout..
it would have looked rubbish on netflix
That rule is in place since 2019 is for no screens during testing
There are rules of NO screens during RACE weekend since 2010 or earlier
I have read the rules.

I know the cars are technically legal

But the means of achieving this is copying merc intellectual property with little or no amendments..

The whole thing is a clone and im glad the FiA have banned Copycats..

“You should only submit your own work...”
Where did u get that? Where in rules it states that
You just need to make the 'listed parts' - and it is currently limited to the survival cell, the front impact structure, the roll structures and bodywork with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed bodywork geometries. All the other thing can be brought from others OR manufactured based on CAD.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/brak ... 0/4361531/

Coming to Aero parts, if no one can copy it then F1 would have died off in the 60s and 70s. Every car including the top and bottom teams have copied their every VISIBLE innovation from each other. No way FIA can stop that (unless they want to allow one team to hoard all the innovations).