General Honda F1 Topic

[Wouter]

Come on man. Maybe I used wrong word but what I said is clear enough.

Not nearly. If you don't mean they are manufactured outside of Europe, then what?

.
@Etusch speaks Turkish and he meant to say they are manufactured in Europe.
" ... which are manufactured out of europe." = They come from (out of) Europe. Not outside Europe.
But for a native English speaker it is confusing indeed.
I am not a native English speaker too and I understand his slip of the tongue more easily.

[ivanlesk]

Come on man. Maybe I used wrong word but what I said is clear enough.

Not nearly. If you don't mean they are manufactured outside of Europe, then what?

.
@Etusch speaks Turkish and he meant to say they are manufactured in Europe.
" ... which are manufactured out of europe." = They come from (out of) Europe. Not outside Europe.
But for a native English speaker it is confusing indeed.
I am not a native English speaker too and I understand his slip of the tongue more easily.

Sure, myself included. But..

Until now, I didn't realize what he meant.
Maybe go trough translate or something to check.

[NL_Fer]

They make great driving cars, with great engines. But all factors combined, Honda is not slaying the European B&C class so most people prefer brands like Skoda, Peugeot and Renault.

[JordanMugen]

I figured out that only brands you can see around are hyundai and mazda which are manufactured out of europe.

@Etusch speaks Turkish and he meant to say they are manufactured in Europe.
" ... which are manufactured out of europe." = They come from (out of) Europe. Not outside Europe.

Etusch mentioned both Hyundai and Mazda. Hyundai is made in Czech Republic and has no import tariff, Mazda however is made in Japan for sale in Europe and does attract the 9.8% import tariff.

Since I don't believe Honda are replacing the Swindon, UK factory, therefore future Hondas will attract the 9.8% tariff too (the tariff will finally and gradually reduce to 0% by 2032 IIRC, but it is too little too late in terms of the EU supporting the Japanese car industry -- indeed with the EU's past pro-diesel policies you'd almost perceive their stance as quite the opposite!), which will further make Honda pricing uncompetitive in Europe.

They make great driving cars, with great engines. But all factors combined, Honda is not slaying the European B&C class so most people prefer brands like Skoda, Peugeot and Renault.

Meanwhile the Civic is the top-selling car in Canada and among the top 2-3 top selling C-class cars in North America and South East Asia. Go figure!

Indeed, it is as if different markets have different preferences and requirements. For reference, North American (or Australian or South East Asian) motorists view Volkswagens as unreliable as they are more used to Toyotas, Hondas or Mazdas that can serve in the family for 15+ years and hardly ever need a unscheduled repair, and the Volkswagens (or Ford-Werke, Opel, Renault, Peugeot etc) are at contrast to that. Whereas from what I can gather European motorists are used to their vehicles needing repairs from time to time, as many have never owned a Toyota or Honda or Suzuki or other Japanese car (notwithstanding that the quality level of Nissan is pretty much level with Renault these days).

[Big Tea]

It seems that cars today sell on perception and colour.
How often do you hear 'oh, nice what car are you after? A red one, or a blue one. Few cars are wanted for any practical reason now.
Some 'want a mini' or a fiat 500 or a convertible, less often 'something big enough to get all the kids stuff in' but usually its the one with the best music on the advert.

I have lots of sympathy for the car makers, as even cost seems irrelevant now.
Edit. Sorry, my point was that car makers no longer seem to design for byers, but to fit government criteria in preferred countries. They can not fit them all.

[Jolle]

I figured out that only brands you can see around are hyundai and mazda which are manufactured out of europe.

@Etusch speaks Turkish and he meant to say they are manufactured in Europe.
" ... which are manufactured out of europe." = They come from (out of) Europe. Not outside Europe.

Etusch mentioned both Hyundai and Mazda. Hyundai is made in Czech Republic and has no import tariff, Mazda however is made in Japan for sale in Europe and does attract the 9.8% import tariff.

Since I don't believe Honda are replacing the Swindon, UK factory, therefore future Hondas will attract the 9.8% tariff too (the tariff will finally and gradually reduce to 0% by 2032 IIRC, but it is too little too late in terms of the EU supporting the Japanese car industry -- indeed with the EU's past pro-diesel policies you'd almost perceive their stance as quite the opposite!), which will further make Honda pricing uncompetitive in Europe.

They make great driving cars, with great engines. But all factors combined, Honda is not slaying the European B&C class so most people prefer brands like Skoda, Peugeot and Renault.

Meanwhile the Civic is the top-selling car in Canada and among the top 2-3 top selling C-class cars in North America and South East Asia. Go figure!

Indeed, it is as if different markets have different preferences and requirements. For reference, North American (or Australian or South East Asian) motorists view Volkswagens as unreliable as they are more used to Toyotas, Hondas or Mazdas that can serve in the family for 15+ years and hardly ever need a unscheduled repair, and the Volkswagens (or Ford-Werke, Opel, Renault, Peugeot etc) are at contrast to that. Whereas from what I can gather European motorists are used to their vehicles needing repairs from time to time, as many have never owned a Toyota or Honda or Suzuki or other Japanese car (notwithstanding that the quality level of Nissan is pretty much level with Renault these days).

If you go to one of the European sale sites of Honda and compare that to northern America, you'll be amazed how different the brand is on both continents. We only get the Jazz, Civic (no type-R), two small SUV thingies and that new EV. That's it. No Acura, no large sedans, stations, minivans, MPV's. All very boring and besides that a website that doesn't look that great or inviting.

[JordanMugen]

No Acura, no large sedans, stations, minivans, MPV's.

With 2.0L turbos or V6s, all of these vehicles are going to fall into punitive European tax brackets aren't they?

The 1.0L three-cylinder engine offered in the Civic in Europe isn't offered in North America, for example. Similarly Mazda have a detuned mild hybrid version of their 2.0L Mazda 3 in Europe which is much less powerful (but less emitting) than the one sold elsewhere.

The European auto market has a much larger emphasis on minimising CO2 emissions and minimising fuel consumption than auto markets elsewhere. Perhaps Honda (ironically, originally known as a maker of the tiny subcompact N600 and 'cruisy little motorbikes') is missing a trick by not selling their various 660cc Kei cars in Europe? (Which admittedly are only manufactured in right-hand-drive which is a problem.)

But again, anything imported from Japan is going to have a 9.8% import tariff which makes setting a competitive price a problematic exercise.

[etusch]

No Acura, no large sedans, stations, minivans, MPV's.

With 2.0L turbos or V6s, all of these vehicles are going to fall into punitive European tax brackets aren't they?

The 1.0L three-cylinder engine offered in the Civic in Europe isn't offered in North America, for example. Similarly Mazda have a detuned mild hybrid version of their 2.0L Mazda 3 in Europe which is much less powerful (but less emitting) than the one sold elsewhere.

The European auto market has a much larger emphasis on minimising CO2 emissions and minimising fuel consumption than auto markets elsewhere. Perhaps Honda (ironically, originally known as a maker of the tiny subcompact N600 and 'cruisy little motorbikes') is missing a trick by not selling their various 660cc Kei cars in Europe? (Which admittedly are only manufactured in right-hand-drive which is a problem.)

But again, anything imported from Japan is going to have a 9.8% import tariff which makes setting a competitive price a problematic exercise.

I think it is more than pricing. Maybe honda style don't fit with european market, maybe they don't work good enough to sell more.
As you said honda has small engines too. 1.0 I3 to 1.5 I4 direct gasoline injection, 1.5 turbo, 1.6 turbo diesel, R18, R20 and k20 engines. Honda's prices are not higher than mazda.
Japanness car makers don't jump into flows without making enough research about it ( Even when vw started to downsizing their engines, still it was not a new idea ).
For example European makers started a campain of downsizing and made very small I4 engines especially vw. I don't remember which one it was, a japanness car maker said that going slower than 1.5 is not an efficient way of ds. Now everyone come to 1.5 lt if it is not I3. Mazda is almost completely sticking older approach. they uses same bigger engines just adding turbo. I don't know if anyone buy a mazda in usa with and engine slower than 2.5 lt.

[Jolle]

No Acura, no large sedans, stations, minivans, MPV's.

With 2.0L turbos or V6s, all of these vehicles are going to fall into punitive European tax brackets aren't they?

The 1.0L three-cylinder engine offered in the Civic in Europe isn't offered in North America, for example. Similarly Mazda have a detuned mild hybrid version of their 2.0L Mazda 3 in Europe which is much less powerful (but less emitting) than the one sold elsewhere.

The European auto market has a much larger emphasis on minimising CO2 emissions and minimising fuel consumption than auto markets elsewhere. Perhaps Honda (ironically, originally known as a maker of the tiny subcompact N600 and 'cruisy little motorbikes') is missing a trick by not selling their various 660cc Kei cars in Europe? (Which admittedly are only manufactured in right-hand-drive which is a problem.)

But again, anything imported from Japan is going to have a 9.8% import tariff which makes setting a competitive price a problematic exercise.

I think it is more than pricing. Maybe honda style don't fit with european market, maybe they don't work good enough to sell more.
As you said honda has small engines too. 1.0 I3 to 1.5 I4 direct gasoline injection, 1.5 turbo, 1.6 turbo diesel, R18, R20 and k20 engines. Honda's prices are not higher than mazda.
Japanness car makers don't jump into flows without making enough research about it ( Even when vw started to downsizing their engines, still it was not a new idea ).
For example European makers started a campain of downsizing and made very small I4 engines especially vw. I don't remember which one it was, a japanness car maker said that going slower than 1.5 is not an efficient way of ds. Now everyone come to 1.5 lt if it is not I3. Mazda is almost completely sticking older approach. they uses same bigger engines just adding turbo. I don't know if anyone buy a mazda in usa with and engine slower than 2.5 lt.

Don’t forget that European car buyers are also used to build on order, where you can spec your car in great detail, while many of the imported Japanese cars (at least used to, been a while since I bought a new car) was sold from inventory.

[etusch]

With 2.0L turbos or V6s, all of these vehicles are going to fall into punitive European tax brackets aren't they?

The 1.0L three-cylinder engine offered in the Civic in Europe isn't offered in North America, for example. Similarly Mazda have a detuned mild hybrid version of their 2.0L Mazda 3 in Europe which is much less powerful (but less emitting) than the one sold elsewhere.

The European auto market has a much larger emphasis on minimising CO2 emissions and minimising fuel consumption than auto markets elsewhere. Perhaps Honda (ironically, originally known as a maker of the tiny subcompact N600 and 'cruisy little motorbikes') is missing a trick by not selling their various 660cc Kei cars in Europe? (Which admittedly are only manufactured in right-hand-drive which is a problem.)

But again, anything imported from Japan is going to have a 9.8% import tariff which makes setting a competitive price a problematic exercise.

I think it is more than pricing. Maybe honda style don't fit with european market, maybe they don't work good enough to sell more.
As you said honda has small engines too. 1.0 I3 to 1.5 I4 direct gasoline injection, 1.5 turbo, 1.6 turbo diesel, R18, R20 and k20 engines. Honda's prices are not higher than mazda.
Japanness car makers don't jump into flows without making enough research about it ( Even when vw started to downsizing their engines, still it was not a new idea ).
For example European makers started a campain of downsizing and made very small I4 engines especially vw. I don't remember which one it was, a japanness car maker said that going slower than 1.5 is not an efficient way of ds. Now everyone come to 1.5 lt if it is not I3. Mazda is almost completely sticking older approach. they uses same bigger engines just adding turbo. I don't know if anyone buy a mazda in usa with and engine slower than 2.5 lt.

Don’t forget that European car buyers are also used to build on order, where you can spec your car in great detail, while many of the imported Japanese cars (at least used to, been a while since I bought a new car) was sold from inventory.

can we say that first part of my comments already cover what you had said?

[PlatinumZealot]

And what about the new men powers for RBP, what will they do?

Start R&D for the 2026-PU

will it affect AUDI/VW decision?

Very much so if VAG is serious.
I think the new RB guys will be creating IP on their own as if they were building their own engine anyway, and if VAG does come the RB guys can always treansfer IP to VAG for use.

If VAG is in the door already, I imagine they will be integrating the new engine guys into some new subsidiary engine department or something. Hmm.

[restless]

I think it is more than pricing. Maybe honda style don't fit with european market, maybe they don't work good enough to sell more.

Honda was doing fine in Europe 20-25y ago.
But back then they had "halo" cars /s2000, prelude,accord coupe, type r/. They had 1.8 180hp engine in 1000kg car.
Fast forward 20y ahead.
- no halo car
- not a SINGLE "performance" offer. Buy what we sell or be gone.
- no plugins /duh, but... at least OFFER ALTERNATIVE/
- no engine choice. none. 0. Buy what we sell or be gone.
- prices in some segments crossing BMW/Audi/Mercedes offers nowhere near the choice or luxury. Cant' choose an engine! Buy what we sell or be gone.
- Buy what we sell or be gone. Wait, Did I wrote that several times ?!

[etusch]

I think it is more than pricing. Maybe honda style don't fit with european market, maybe they don't work good enough to sell more.

Honda was doing fine in Europe 20-25y ago.
But back then they had "halo" cars /s2000, prelude,accord coupe, type r/. They had 1.8 180hp engine in 1000kg car.
Fast forward 20y ahead.
- no halo car
- not a SINGLE "performance" offer. Buy what we sell or be gone.
- no plugins /duh, but... at least OFFER ALTERNATIVE/
- no engine choice. none. 0. Buy what we sell or be gone.
- prices in some segments crossing BMW/Audi/Mercedes offers nowhere near the choice or luxury. Cant' choose an engine! Buy what we sell or be gone.
- Buy what we sell or be gone. Wait, Did I wrote that several times ?!

Honda is doing some mistakes sometimes. I don't know how they do that. What they are doing is not logical for me but maybe they have a logic I can not see. For example before vw dieselgate, diesel engines were very popular ( still popular ) in Turkey. In a strange way ( at least for me ) our people likes sedan/limousine cars too much. Everybody was waiting a diesel sedan civic. but when Honda finally bring a diesel car, they bring it with hatchback with 1.6 diesel + manuel transmission. After that finally they brought 9 speed full auto with 1.6 i-dtec but it was a bit late. Another great thing that Honda can do was putting 1.6 twin turbo i-dtec under hood of civic. It would be like a diesel typeR.

I don't know what vw offers in Europe but I remember that in turkey there was lots of 1.8 engines. When you look at their power there are many engine options but basically they were same. 1.8 t 125 hp, 150 hp, 18? hp, 225hp.
BMW ? You can buy 3,16 3,18 3,20 with same engine but different power. I think this is a kind of cheating. Maybe 90 percent of people, maybe much more than that can not see difference between I3 with I4 if both produce 140 hp. I know a car enthusiast who has 1 series BMW I3 140 hp. I said it is not a good engine. He said that he didn't see anything bad with it. A few weeks later he shared a footage that a merc beat him very badly. There was 16 hp power difference but gap was bigger than that.
When they do that it just that they just maximize their profit by selling cheaper cars. But if you keep same quality of leather inside the car, at least 90 percent of people will not understand it's low quality under the hood.

[Jolle]

I think it is more than pricing. Maybe honda style don't fit with european market, maybe they don't work good enough to sell more.

Honda was doing fine in Europe 20-25y ago.
But back then they had "halo" cars /s2000, prelude,accord coupe, type r/. They had 1.8 180hp engine in 1000kg car.
Fast forward 20y ahead.
- no halo car
- not a SINGLE "performance" offer. Buy what we sell or be gone.
- no plugins /duh, but... at least OFFER ALTERNATIVE/
- no engine choice. none. 0. Buy what we sell or be gone.
- prices in some segments crossing BMW/Audi/Mercedes offers nowhere near the choice or luxury. Cant' choose an engine! Buy what we sell or be gone.
- Buy what we sell or be gone. Wait, Did I wrote that several times ?!

Honda is doing some mistakes sometimes. I don't know how they do that. What they are doing is not logical for me but maybe they have a logic I can not see. For example before vw dieselgate, diesel engines were very popular ( still popular ) in Turkey. In a strange way ( at least for me ) our people likes sedan/limousine cars too much. Everybody was waiting a diesel sedan civic. but when Honda finally bring a diesel car, they bring it with hatchback with 1.6 diesel + manuel transmission. After that finally they brought 9 speed full auto with 1.6 i-dtec but it was a bit late. Another great thing that Honda can do was putting 1.6 twin turbo i-dtec under hood of civic. It would be like a diesel typeR.

I don't know what vw offers in Europe but I remember that in turkey there was lots of 1.8 engines. When you look at their power there are many engine options but basically they were same. 1.8 t 125 hp, 150 hp, 18? hp, 225hp.
BMW ? You can buy 3,16 3,18 3,20 with same engine but different power. I think this is a kind of cheating. Maybe 90 percent of people, maybe much more than that can not see difference between I3 with I4 if both produce 140 hp. I know a car enthusiast who has 1 series BMW I3 140 hp. I said it is not a good engine. He said that he didn't see anything bad with it. A few weeks later he shared a footage that a merc beat him very badly. There was 16 hp power difference but gap was bigger than that.
When they do that it just that they just maximize their profit by selling cheaper cars. But if you keep same quality of leather inside the car, at least 90 percent of people will not understand it's low quality under the hood.

It's something every car manufacturer does now they said goodbye to the NA engines, with a turbo engine, capacity isn't that important anymore for power output. It's about turbo size, intercooling, etc etc. Instead having a 1.2, 1.6, 2.0, etc, they now have a 1.4 with different tuning. And not only VW (who started it with the 1.9tdi waaaaaay back) but every car manufacturer (all the way up to McLaren with their 4.0 V8 turbo's). Just brows some specs, there are maybe a handful NA engines left you can buy (some Lamborginis and Ferraris and small cheap city cars), the rest is all turbo and just a few base ICE's with different stuff around it to give is different specs

[NL_Fer]

Honda and the most other Japanese brands lost a lot or market in the 00’s. They didn’t offer small diesels at the time, like an aluminium 1.5 or 1.6 which ran at 5l/100km. And the 00 civic was pretty boring. They fixed that design in 05, but they offered powerless 1.4 and 1.6 gasoline engines, a noisy 2.2 diesel and the IMA was a sedan only. Than in the 10’s the European brands came turbo-gasoline and DCT boxes. And even more competition like the A-Class and A3.

Hyundai and Kia have moved the opposite direction with European designed models.