2026 Hybrid Powerunits

[mzso]

You missed that part. They would have to buy out Formula E.

You missed this part:

BTW The agreement with Formula E remaining the premier fully electric single-seater series is an informal agreement.

I mean I dont know what he means by that because its reported as a fully formal deal between Formula E and FIA, extending to 2048.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-e/form ... tric-deal/

Now Liberty is a majority shareholder in Formula E as well so they could swing it but they'll have to execute a buy out of all stakeholders who are only part of Formula E.

Well, then there's what I pointed out: we don't know the terms of that agreement they vaguely referred to. If indeed such exists. Maybe it explicitly refers to only BEVs, that's entirely possible.

[diffuser]

You missed that part. They would have to buy out Formula E.

You missed this part:

BTW The agreement with Formula E remaining the premier fully electric single-seater series is an informal agreement.

I mean I dont know what he means by that because its reported as a fully formal deal between Formula E and FIA, extending to 2048.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-e/form ... tric-deal/

Now Liberty is a majority shareholder in Formula E as well so they could swing it but they'll have to execute a buy out of all stakeholders who are only part of Formula E.

You have controlling interest, you can control.

It's nice for them to put Formula 1 and Formula E in the same category "single seaters" but Formula E is more like Indy car "spec series" . While F1 is a constructors series.

[peewon]

It's nice for them to put Formula 1 and Formula E in the same category "single seaters" but Formula E is more like Indy car "spec series" . While F1 is a constructors series.

Well its not a spec series. Its somewhere in between F1 and pure spec series. It was only spec for Gen 1 cars. Motors, inverters, suspension, gearbox, etc are all open development. But my point is why would Liberty spend money paying off people, simply to merge two distinct revenue sources into one. On top of that Im not sure if an electric series will ever overtake a ICE based series in terms of popularity so Liberty would not want to abandon that. For reference the cumulative TV audience for Formula E was 561 million in 2025 vs 1.83B for F1. It might be suicidal for F1 to give up the designation of the premier ICE based single seater series.

[diffuser]

It's nice for them to put Formula 1 and Formula E in the same category "single seaters" but Formula E is more like Indy car "spec series" . While F1 is a constructors series.

Well its not a spec series. Its somewhere in between F1 and pure spec series. It was only spec for Gen 1 cars. Motors, inverters, suspension, gearbox, etc are all open development. But my point is why would Liberty spend money paying off people, simply to merge two distinct revenue sources into one. On top of that Im not sure if an electric series will ever overtake a ICE based series in terms of popularity so Liberty would not want to abandon that. For reference the cumulative TV audience for Formula E was 561 million in 2025 vs 1.83B for F1. It might be suicidal for F1 to give up the designation of the premier ICE based single seater series.

There is merit to your argument. The question is will people continue to watch F1 when it is no longer perceived to be the pinnacle.

[mzso]

You have controlling interest, you can control.

It's nice for them to put Formula 1 and Formula E in the same category "single seaters" but Formula E is more like Indy car "spec series" . While F1 is a constructors series.

Well, it's easy then. As long as Liberty wants the change.
However if it's the FIA and a Liberty is against it, they can kill whatever idea that conflicts with the claimed contract.

[mzso]

It's nice for them to put Formula 1 and Formula E in the same category "single seaters" but Formula E is more like Indy car "spec series" . While F1 is a constructors series.

Well its not a spec series. Its somewhere in between F1 and pure spec series. It was only spec for Gen 1 cars. Motors, inverters, suspension, gearbox, etc are all open development. But my point is why would Liberty spend money paying off people, simply to merge two distinct revenue sources into one. On top of that Im not sure if an electric series will ever overtake a ICE based series in terms of popularity so Liberty would not want to abandon that. For reference the cumulative TV audience for Formula E was 561 million in 2025 vs 1.83B for F1. It might be suicidal for F1 to give up the designation of the premier ICE based single seater series.

Why would they pay off anyone when they own both series? They do whatever they want.
Also why would they merge? FE so far raced on different circuits and they put as many races as they could in F1's off-season. No reason to kill off a far more accessible series that avoids direct competition with F1 to begin with.
They could keep visiting circuits unused by F1, but more interesting ones now with the higher performance.

[diffuser]

You have controlling interest, you can control.

It's nice for them to put Formula 1 and Formula E in the same category "single seaters" but Formula E is more like Indy car "spec series" . While F1 is a constructors series.

Well, it's easy then. As long as Liberty wants the change.
However if it's the FIA and a Liberty is against it, they can kill whatever idea that conflicts with the claimed contract.

Agreed, if they see a reason that the change benefits them they'll do it. Obviously, the opposite is also true.

[Badger]

It's nice for them to put Formula 1 and Formula E in the same category "single seaters" but Formula E is more like Indy car "spec series" . While F1 is a constructors series.

Well its not a spec series. Its somewhere in between F1 and pure spec series. It was only spec for Gen 1 cars. Motors, inverters, suspension, gearbox, etc are all open development. But my point is why would Liberty spend money paying off people, simply to merge two distinct revenue sources into one. On top of that Im not sure if an electric series will ever overtake a ICE based series in terms of popularity so Liberty would not want to abandon that. For reference the cumulative TV audience for Formula E was 561 million in 2025 vs 1.83B for F1. It might be suicidal for F1 to give up the designation of the premier ICE based single seater series.

Those viewership figures are about as real as Santa Claus. When you account for inflation FE has barely grown since 2019. The decision to begin to encroach on FE territory by F1 was a huge mistake, it's an unprofitable series with a shrinking revenue. Meanwhile F1 has been booming with gas-guzzlers for the past 5 years.

[diffuser]

It's nice for them to put Formula 1 and Formula E in the same category "single seaters" but Formula E is more like Indy car "spec series" . While F1 is a constructors series.

Well its not a spec series. Its somewhere in between F1 and pure spec series. It was only spec for Gen 1 cars. Motors, inverters, suspension, gearbox, etc are all open development. But my point is why would Liberty spend money paying off people, simply to merge two distinct revenue sources into one. On top of that Im not sure if an electric series will ever overtake a ICE based series in terms of popularity so Liberty would not want to abandon that. For reference the cumulative TV audience for Formula E was 561 million in 2025 vs 1.83B for F1. It might be suicidal for F1 to give up the designation of the premier ICE based single seater series.

Those viewership figures are about as real as Santa Claus. When you account for inflation FE has barely grown since 2019. The decision to begin to encroach on FE territory by F1 was a huge mistake, it's an unprofitable series with a shrinking revenue. Meanwhile F1 has been booming with gas-guzzlers for the past 5 years.
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/dQwA5/full.png
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/UCiY2/full.png

Agreed, I think it's a big mistake to equate F1's popularity to the ICE. For me it's always been because it was the pinnacle of motorsports. That means, attracting the best drivers and the best minds. They do that by paying the most money.

[Badger]

Well its not a spec series. Its somewhere in between F1 and pure spec series. It was only spec for Gen 1 cars. Motors, inverters, suspension, gearbox, etc are all open development. But my point is why would Liberty spend money paying off people, simply to merge two distinct revenue sources into one. On top of that Im not sure if an electric series will ever overtake a ICE based series in terms of popularity so Liberty would not want to abandon that. For reference the cumulative TV audience for Formula E was 561 million in 2025 vs 1.83B for F1. It might be suicidal for F1 to give up the designation of the premier ICE based single seater series.

Those viewership figures are about as real as Santa Claus. When you account for inflation FE has barely grown since 2019. The decision to begin to encroach on FE territory by F1 was a huge mistake, it's an unprofitable series with a shrinking revenue. Meanwhile F1 has been booming with gas-guzzlers for the past 5 years.
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/dQwA5/full.png
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/UCiY2/full.png

Agreed, I think it's a big mistake to equate F1's popularity to the ICE. For me it's always been because it was the pinnacle of motorsports. That means, attracting the best drivers and the best minds. They do that by paying the most money.

Not sure we agree at all. F1 being the pinnacle of motorsport has a lot to do with the ICE and the power density it brings, hence why FE is such a second rate series in comparison.

F1 trying to become 50% Formula E was a big mistake, hence all the complaints we see in 2026.

[peewon]

Those viewership figures are about as real as Santa Claus. When you account for inflation FE has barely grown since 2019. The decision to begin to encroach on FE territory by F1 was a huge mistake, it's an unprofitable series with a shrinking revenue. Meanwhile F1 has been booming with gas-guzzlers for the past 5 years.
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/dQwA5/full.png
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/UCiY2/full.png

I think we agree on the general point that the popularity of FE is nowhere enough for Liberty to even consider switching F1 to electric? Regardless of the metric you want to use. One nitpick is that FE graph goes till 2024 whereas the F1 graph is till 2025. FE was also back above $200m for 2025.

I think FE will reach its peak popularity when the cars are not battery limited. It will be interesting to see what that looks like. However, I think ICE will always remain the premium series for the foreseeable future.

[peewon]

Why would they pay off anyone when they own both series? They do whatever they want.
Also why would they merge? FE so far raced on different circuits and they put as many races as they could in F1's off-season. No reason to kill off a far more accessible series that avoids direct competition with F1 to begin with.
They could keep visiting circuits unused by F1, but more interesting ones now with the higher performance.

Because they dont own 35% of FE Holdings. i dont think they will merge. Im literally making that point in this discussion.

[Farnborough]

Interesting interview with Tombazis on this topic

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1093694/1 ... gine-rules

[Rodak]

Fuel cells are still heavy and they have a massive physical footprint. A F1 car with a battery able to support max output for even 1/6 th of the race distance would be heavy enough to require massive cars to be safe in a crash and the handling would be awful. The total weight including the driver can't be more than 800kg and even than imho is too much for F1.

Not necessarily. There were designs that had rather good power density. If they got some proper development attention they would be even better. It a tech that can be improved iteratively. Always making the active materials thinner, the structural parts lighter, etc.
I think 1/6 race distance (probably even better) is pretty much doable below 800kg at the current state of technology. Using the best cells, and recovering as much as possible

he failure of EV supercars has nothing to do with design

I disagree. Many electric variants had dumb quirks compared to ICE variants. Upon the overpricing.
[/quote]

Discharge rate for fuel cells is also an issue; I'm guessing the fuel cell would be generating at a flat rate all the time, charging a battery for actual use. Another issue is the fuel for fuel cells; assuming a hydrogen cell fuel storage becomes a limiting issue. I'm not going to run the numbers (again) but liquid hydrogen is very bulky for energy density and hydrogen gas is right out. The most effective fuel cells run both hydrogen and liquid oxygen, as air is only 20% O2.

A fuel cell F1 equivalent is never going to happen, the numbers just don't work, and the same for hydrogen powered commercial aircraft.

[diffuser]

Those viewership figures are about as real as Santa Claus. When you account for inflation FE has barely grown since 2019. The decision to begin to encroach on FE territory by F1 was a huge mistake, it's an unprofitable series with a shrinking revenue. Meanwhile F1 has been booming with gas-guzzlers for the past 5 years.
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/dQwA5/full.png
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/UCiY2/full.png

I think we agree on the general point that the popularity of FE is nowhere enough for Liberty to even consider switching F1 to electric? Regardless of the metric you want to use. One nitpick is that FE graph goes till 2024 whereas the F1 graph is till 2025. FE was also back above $200m for 2025.

I think FE will reach its peak popularity when the cars are not battery limited. It will be interesting to see what that looks like. However, I think ICE will always remain the premium series for the foreseeable future.

The only VALID reason not switch to full electric is if ICE is faster. Right now it is, that will change in the near future.