Felipe Massa - Robbed of his Prime?

[Stradivarius]

Incredibly gifted drivers when the circumstances were right, yet not quite as able to perform when the circumstances do not suit them.

I think this is a very common sentence used about f1 drivers. But in my opinion it doesn't make sense without any quantification. Every driver performs better when the circumstances suit him than when the circumstances don't suit him. If you say this about Massa, you must also say it about Kimi and I would actually say it applies more to Kimi than to Massa, considering that Massa scored more points than Kimi during their time together at Ferrari. But my claim is that it applies to everyone and quantifications are difficult to make. It seems to me that Alonso has gotten Ferrari to make the circumstances suit him at Ferrari, at least most of the time.

In general, I think it is very common in sports to underestimate the psychological factor. Confidence is very important in all types of sports and I don't think f1 is any difference. Very often you see in a football match that once a team scores, they start playing better, and if a team comes under by 2 goals, they tend to play worse. But if they suddenly get a goal, you might see the team playing better again. Or how about the fact that it is an advantage to play football games at home? There is speculation that this has to do with fatigue from traveling and so on, i.e. physical reasons, but most studies point towards it all being down to psychology. The impact of this psychological factor is often very big, but it is often difficult to measure. When Alonso came to Ferrari, Massa beat him several times at the beginning of the season. After 7 races, Massa had beat Alonso in 4 of them. Then came three races where Massa didn't score and then we had the race in Germany where Massa again was on top, but received the team order. I can imagine that receiving a team order when you are finally set to win a race again, after 2 years, is a massive blow to your confidence. Massa had done very well at Ferrari for 3-4 years and then suddenly it was all about Alonso.

I am not saying that Alonso isn't better than Massa, but I think Massa is in a much more difficult situation pshychologically than Alonso. Last year, Alonso made a mistake at Suzuka and retired on the first lap. Vettel won his 2nd consecutive race and was suddenly just 4 points behind Alonso in a car that now seemed unstoppable. It could seem that this affected Alonso badly, as for the rest of the season, Massa was suddenly better than him on several occasions.

[strad]

Massa occupies that territory that we saw with guys like Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

Incredibly gifted drivers when the circumstances were right, yet not quite as able to perform when the circumstances do not suit them. The difference between the good drivers and the greats is what they do when the circumstances do not suit them.

Maybe had Ferrari been more nurturing to Massa we might have seen more sustained great performances out of him. Remember, Frentzen only thrived in easier atmospheres like Sauber and then Jordan. Williams was not a good environment for him.

Good points and comparison

[Gerhard Berger]

Incredibly gifted drivers when the circumstances were right, yet not quite as able to perform when the circumstances do not suit them.

I think this is a very common sentence used about f1 drivers. But in my opinion it doesn't make sense without any quantification. Every driver performs better when the circumstances suit him than when the circumstances don't suit him. If you say this about Massa, you must also say it about Kimi and I would actually say it applies more to Kimi than to Massa, considering that Massa scored more points than Kimi during their time together at Ferrari. But my claim is that it applies to everyone and quantifications are difficult to make. It seems to me that Alonso has gotten Ferrari to make the circumstances suit him at Ferrari, at least most of the time.

In general, I think it is very common in sports to underestimate the psychological factor. Confidence is very important in all types of sports and I don't think f1 is any difference. Very often you see in a football match that once a team scores, they start playing better, and if a team comes under by 2 goals, they tend to play worse. But if they suddenly get a goal, you might see the team playing better again. Or how about the fact that it is an advantage to play football games at home? There is speculation that this has to do with fatigue from traveling and so on, i.e. physical reasons, but most studies point towards it all being down to psychology. The impact of this psychological factor is often very big, but it is often difficult to measure. When Alonso came to Ferrari, Massa beat him several times at the beginning of the season. After 7 races, Massa had beat Alonso in 4 of them. Then came three races where Massa didn't score and then we had the race in Germany where Massa again was on top, but received the team order. I can imagine that receiving a team order when you are finally set to win a race again, after 2 years, is a massive blow to your confidence. Massa had done very well at Ferrari for 3-4 years and then suddenly it was all about Alonso.

I am not saying that Alonso isn't better than Massa, but I think Massa is in a much more difficult situation pshychologically than Alonso. Last year, Alonso made a mistake at Suzuka and retired on the first lap. Vettel won his 2nd consecutive race and was suddenly just 4 points behind Alonso in a car that now seemed unstoppable. It could seem that this affected Alonso badly, as for the rest of the season, Massa was suddenly better than him on several occasions.

Pyschology is important as you say. What happened at Hockenheim 2010 may have affected Massa pyschologically, but that was 3 years ago, he should be over it by now. In fact, if it did affect him, he should have been over it within a few months.

[Stradivarius]

Pyschology is important as you say. What happened at Hockenheim 2010 may have affected Massa pyschologically, but that was 3 years ago, he should be over it by now. In fact, if it did affect him, he should have been over it within a few months.

Massa is probably over the team order from Hockenheim 2010 and I think he has been for years. But Alonso has been Ferrari's number one driver since then, and Massa has been number two. That is still the case and it may therefore represent a constant psychological challenge. For the record, Massa has received several team orders after the one at Hockenheim 2010.

I repeat that I am not saying that Alonso isn't better than Massa. And that may very well be the problem. Massa fought for the title in 2007 and in 2008 and came closer than anyone has ever been without winning. But as soon as Alonso was estabilshed as number one in Ferrari, Massa was suddenly eliminated as a title candidate and since then he hasn't been in contention. Of course, if he performs better than Alonso from the start of the season, he would be back in contention. Ferrari won't favour a driver unless they have reason to belive that he is the best. But sadly for Massa, Alonso is better.

[Gerhard Berger]

Pyschology is important as you say. What happened at Hockenheim 2010 may have affected Massa pyschologically, but that was 3 years ago, he should be over it by now. In fact, if it did affect him, he should have been over it within a few months.

Massa is probably over the team order from Hockenheim 2010 and I think he has been for years. But Alonso has been Ferrari's number one driver since then, and Massa has been number two. That is still the case and it may therefore represent a constant psychological challenge. For the record, Massa has received several team orders after the one at Hockenheim 2010.

Yeh Massa received several team orders last year, but i don't think he should have been upset about that, given that he was already well out of the running for the championship.

I repeat that I am not saying that Alonso isn't better than Massa. And that may very well be the problem. Massa fought for the title in 2007 and in 2008 and came closer than anyone has ever been without winning. But as soon as Alonso was estabilshed as number one in Ferrari, Massa was suddenly eliminated as a title candidate and since then he hasn't been in contention. Of course, if he performs better than Alonso from the start of the season, he would be back in contention. Ferrari won't favour a driver unless they have reason to belive that he is the best. But sadly for Massa, Alonso is better.

I agree, the only way to get Ferrari to favour him is to beat Alonso from the start of the season, the same way he beat Kimi from the start of the 2008 season (well he only started to get a significant points gap during the middle of the season).

[SectorOne]

You're right, They told Perez not to drive after his crash in Monaco. Oh wait, no, they let him get in the car in a state where cornering fast made him dizzy and near unconscious. He then volunteered to stop.

Sauber driver Sergio Perez has been cleared to race in the Canadian Grand Prix after passing a medical.
The 21-year-old spent two nights in hospital after being knocked unconscious in a heavy crash during qualifying for the Monaco Grand Prix.
But an examination by the FIA on Thursday gave the Mexican rookie the all-clear to resume racing.
"It was a very good examination as they checked all my bones, my memory, my reaction," Perez said.
Perez, who revealed that his own doctor's observations were taken into consideration, added: "After the accident I felt dizzy, which is why I stayed another day in hospital, but we were always positive there would be enough time to recover ahead of this race.
"There was nothing damaged, no problems at all, so it was only a matter of time to return to normal life."


So 2 full weeks after the incident he feels a bit sick in the stomach.

BBC 5 live pit-lane reporter Jennie Gow said she had been told by team boss Peter Sauber that Perez "lacked confidence and wasn't as comfortable in the car as he felt he should be".

That could be anything, it doesn´t have to automatically mean that it´s related to the crash, could be a badly timed stomach bug.

[raymondu999]

You're right, They told Perez not to drive after his crash in Monaco. Oh wait, no, they let him get in the car in a state where cornering fast made him dizzy and near unconscious. He then volunteered to stop.

Sauber driver Sergio Perez has been cleared to race in the Canadian Grand Prix after passing a medical.

The same way he was cleared to race in Monaco?

[SectorOne]

The same way he was cleared to race in Monaco?

You mean Monaco 2012? Because Monaco 2011 he did not race, presumably not cleared to race.

Raymond, still 7 stars to go, if you want i can link you to every one of them.
The post above Raymond´s just shows how broken the system is. And a couple of other "broken" things......

Edit: i bet you are religious too, that´s the only explanation for behaving so illogically and irrationally.

[beelsebob]

You're right, They told Perez not to drive after his crash in Monaco. Oh wait, no, they let him get in the car in a state where cornering fast made him dizzy and near unconscious. He then volunteered to stop.

Sauber driver Sergio Perez has been cleared to race in the Canadian Grand Prix after passing a medical.

That's exactly the point – he was cleared to race, yet was clearly not entirely recovered .

While the doctors can perform tests that are a necessary condition to being completely recovered from a head injury, they are not a sufficient condition.

[turbof1]

It's very, very difficult for a driver to say "I can't drive". It takes alot to swallow the pride and realise you are not in a position to drive. So if a driver says he can't drive, you can be sure that if he did drive, it would have ended in tears.

Just to compare: Lorenzo (motogp) drove the race at Assen 2 days after he got surgery to put his broken collarbone back into place with a titanium plate, and moto gp is a much more physical sport then formula 1 is. Or Webber driving in 2010 after he broke his shoulder. Racer's can take alot of pain before throwing in the towel, but when they do, it is serious (I personally do not believe it was just his stomach; certainly more to it then that). Always. Passing a medical does not automatically mean you are fit to drive.

There is no need to downvote SectorOne btw. He is technically right: Perez was medically cleared. But yes, there is more to it then just a quick check up.

[f1316]

Massa occupies that territory that we saw with guys like Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

Incredibly gifted drivers when the circumstances were right, yet not quite as able to perform when the circumstances do not suit them. The difference between the good drivers and the greats is what they do when the circumstances do not suit them.

Maybe had Ferrari been more nurturing to Massa we might have seen more sustained great performances out of him. Remember, Frentzen only thrived in easier atmospheres like Sauber and then Jordan. Williams was not a good environment for him.

Good points and comparison http://s22.photobucket.com/user/STRAD2/ ... 1.gif.html

I agree with this but I would also add that I think the difference is largely due to the quality of the Ferrari cars. Massa's was on the pace - qualifying 2nd - in his first race back, but then the car was pretty damn good in that race, as it was '07 and '08.

Massa's fast with a good car but not nearly as good as Alonso at adapting to a car that doesn't suit him.

[SectorOne]

That's exactly the point – he was cleared to race, yet was clearly not entirely recovered .

While the doctors can perform tests that are a necessary condition to being completely recovered from a head injury, they are not a sufficient condition.

But that´s your assumption, it´s not a fact that the Monaco crash was the reason he felt a little bit sick 2 weeks later.
I´m not excluding it but you can´t say for sure. It could be a bad stomach that´s bugging him.

A doctor won´t pick up on that before Perez gets in the car in Canada unless he say his tummy is a little off.

For Massa to have defects on his brain that will hamper his driving (at least that seems to be the proposed idea) i just can´t see how that will go unnoticed.
Even if only Ferrari knew and could see in the telemetry that something isn´t right, do you think they would just let him race with an apparent handicap on his brain that disallows him to be as quick as others or have any impact on the racing which Ferrari will do everything to win?

To me, none of this makes any sense. I´m on the side that thinks current regulations, smaller front tires, really bad cars, a really good teammate and huge amount of pressure is the reason Massa is so inconsistent.

That or a defect brain due to a cracked skull bone which had him hospitalized for a week.

Edit and before anyone downvotes this like every other one, i´m not being rude. Consciously at least.

[beelsebob]

That's exactly the point – he was cleared to race, yet was clearly not entirely recovered .

While the doctors can perform tests that are a necessary condition to being completely recovered from a head injury, they are not a sufficient condition.

But that´s your assumption, it´s not a fact that the Monaco crash was the reason he felt a little bit sick 2 weeks later.
I´m not excluding it but you can´t say for sure. It could be a bad stomach that´s bugging him.

Ocam's Razor would suggest otherwise. That, and the fact that it only affected him while cornering at high speed.

A doctor won´t pick up on that before Perez gets in the car in Canada unless he say his tummy is a little off.

His tummy wasn't off though, he nearly blacked out while at high speed. That isn't a tummy bug.

[SectorOne]

Ocam's Razor would suggest otherwise. That, and the fact that it only affected him while cornering at high speed.

Ocam´s Razor is a very simplistic way to look at it and you should not always just pick the easiest explanation because Ocam´s Razor say so.

For example, a tree has fallen, you say wind blew it over, i say lightning got it.
None of us are saying an elephant tipped it over.

Funny thing about Ocam is he believed in god. Maybe that´s where his theory came from.
Easiest explanation, God made it. Done, problem solved.

His tummy wasn't off though, he nearly blacked out while at high speed. That isn't a tummy bug.

Could you post that quote? I haven´t found anything on him nearly blacking out.

[zonk]

http://blogs.bettor.com/Saubers-Sergio- ... ews-a81576

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/13734813

http://grandprix247.com/2011/06/10/de-l ... in-canada/