F-14 Tomcat retires

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f1.redbaron
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kilcoo316 wrote: The F-15 (C or E) is an old plane, the design is getting on for 30-40 odd years old now.
No it isn't. F-15E is a very modern fighter-attack airplane. The design of the airplane is old, yes, but not the technology in it. If I'm not mistaken, it has a full glass cockpit, with three MFD's in the front and 4 in the back. F-15E replaces both C and D versions (C being an air-to-air version and D being an air-to-ground verion).
kilcoo316 wrote: Indeed the F-22 has a gun
Are you sure about that? I think that F-22 was designed to go undetected, and not for dogfights. Mounting a gun on that airplane will increase its visibility, so it would be completely pointless.
kilcoo316 wrote: For the missiles, well there is a school of thought developing that radar guided BVR missiles are very inefficient and far from the be-all and end-all. This view is strongly backed up by all existing air combat data.
Again, I have to disagree. Most air-to-air kills these days are done using AMRAAM missiles, launched beyond visual range. To illustrate that point I would like to mention that in the recent conflicts, namely ex-Yugoslavia, and Iraq, most (if not all) of the kills were achieved using AMRAAMs. I don't think that there are any documemted examples of any close-combat fights.
Tom wrote:I would have thought that modern planes were far too fast for dogfights.

The pilots could never keep up.
Pilots still do get trained for dogfights, just in case everything else fails. Russia has developed and improved its short-range IR missile (AA-11), to the point that a plane armed with it will come out victorious. Apparently, it is very accurate and deadely...however, I don't think that it has yet been used in a real war.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Ok, the avionics in an F-15E are new, but the aerodynamics are not, it is not in the same league of manouverability as the F-22, EF2000, MiG-20 OVT and S-35 and even the F-16. I've seen the graphs.


Yeah, the F-22 has a gun - we'd the aerodynamics and control department manager in here last week giving a couple of guest lectures - really interesting :) Oh, the gun has a sheath that hides the barrel normally (for reduced RCS), but obviously the sheath moves when firing.


No, its a common misconception. I'll try and find the weblink for the report that makes very harsh reading for BVR advocates (no promises though). Even the AMRAAM kills you refer to were made within visual range. The Pk of an AMRAAM is below 50% from what I've seen... well below 50%... If I remember correctly, 93% of all missile air kills have been in the WVR arena.


As for WVR missiles, the Archer (A-11), Box office (AIM-9X), Python 5 and ASRAAM are generally considered much of a muchness, if anything the slightly older Archer would be a little behind, but the new R-74 should recify that.

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f1.redbaron
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kilcoo316 wrote:Ok, the avionics in an F-15E are new, but the aerodynamics are not, it is not in the same league of manouverability as the F-22, EF2000, MiG-20 OVT and S-35 and even the F-16. I've seen the graphs.
I see your point. In it's defence, F-15 was never designed for manouverability. I think that with the F-15, USAF wanted something that could intercept Tu-95's, and be at par with its Russian counterparts (Su-27, MiG-29).
kilcoo316 wrote: Yeah, the F-22 has a gun - we'd the aerodynamics and control department manager in here last week giving a couple of guest lectures - really interesting :) Oh, the gun has a sheath that hides the barrel normally (for reduced RCS), but obviously the sheath moves when firing.
For that, I owe you an apology. I did look into it, and it seems that it, indeed, is equipped with a gun. My mistake. I hope you understand my initial skepticism...despite the fact that it is hidden away, the placement of such a cannon, creates a cavity, which goes against the whole Stealth beliefs. But if the engineers had found a way to come up with something that takes care of it...hats off to them!

kilcoo316 wrote: No, its a common misconception. I'll try and find the weblink for the report that makes very harsh reading for BVR advocates (no promises though). Even the AMRAAM kills you refer to were made within visual range. The Pk of an AMRAAM is below 50% from what I've seen... well below 50%... If I remember correctly, 93% of all missile air kills have been in the WVR arena.

As for WVR missiles, the Archer (A-11), Box office (AIM-9X), Python 5 and ASRAAM are generally considered much of a muchness, if anything the slightly older Archer would be a little behind, but the new R-74 should recify that.
I see what you're getting at. There was a misunderstanding. When I talked about dogfights, I was refering to the combat of two (or more) airplanes that are no more than 5km of each other. Within Visual Range to me represents anything that can be seen with a naked eye...but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can engage in an immideate dogfight with it.

If I'm not mistaken, AMRAAM can be used even for shorter distances (no less than 5 miles or so). So, yeah, you're probably right in a sense that most of the kills happened within visual range, but I doubt we can classify the as dogfight kills.

I has some really good (and, apparenty, reliable) info about some of the more recent air-to-air combat kills. If I do find it again, I'll post it.

Cheers.

DaveKillens
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The F-15 Eagle was initially designed as an air superiority fighter, and for it's day, it was a spectacular achievement, the best in everything it had to do. It has to be remembered just how old the F-15 is. It's first flight was 1972, when even personal calculators weren't around yet. And it definitely was designed for maneuverability. Over the course of it's long career, it has been upgraded and rebuilt, to the point where it may appear similar to the first generation craft, but improved and modernized in every detail.

The F-15C has an air combat victory ratio of 95-0 making it one of the most effective air superiority aircraft ever developed. The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to, the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-35/37, Rafale, and EF-2000, which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range. Although the F-15C and Su-27P series are similar in many categories, the Su-27 can outperform the F-15C at both long and short ranges. In long-range encounters, with its superiorr radar the Su-27 can launch a missile before the F-15C does, so from a purely kinematic standpoint, the Russian fighters outperform the F-15C in the beyond-visual-range fight. The Su-35 phased array radar is superior to the APG-63 Doppler radar in both detection range and tracking capabilities. Additionally, the Su-35 propulsion system increases the aircraft’s maneuverability with thrust vectoring nozzles. Simulations conducted by British Aerospace and the British Defense Research Agency compared the effectiveness of the F-15C, Rafale, EF-2000, and F-22 against the Russian Su-35 armed with active radar missiles similar to the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM). The Rafale achieved a 1:1 kill ratio (1 Su-35 destroyed for each Rafale lost). The EF-2000 kill ratio was 4.5:1 while the F-22 achieved a ratio of 10:1. In stark contrast was the F-15C, losing 1.3 Eagles for each Su-35 destroyed.
http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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f1.redbaron wrote:I has some really good (and, apparenty, reliable) info about some of the more recent air-to-air combat kills. If I do find it again, I'll post it.

Cheers.

Found what I was looking for :)
Aerospace America

January, 1990

Radar combat and the illusion of invincibility

by Jeffrey L. Ethell, Contributing Editor

Evidence mounts that the stunning capabilities of radar guidance may prove to be its greatest liability

Ever since World War II proved the stunning capabilities of radar, military planners have come to depend on it more and more in modern combat. At present, the U.S. builds weapons and trains personnel in preparation for the radar war of the future, relying almost exclusively on the combat advantages of radar-guided missiles, radar-avoiding stealth technology, air- and land-based early warning radar, low-level terrain-following radar, and target acquisition radar.

At the heart of radar's performance is an uncanny ability to find and hit targets at distances beyond enemy killing range, primarily beyond visual range (BVR). At the same time, radar can be used to provide early warning of an enemy's intentions while radar-jamming and stealth techniques can help to avoid detection by enemy radar. It is almost as if radar has become a kind of Rosetta Stone for the practice of modern warfare.

Unfortunately, radar has not only turned out to be less than invincible, it has recently become a liability. Fueling what is now a raging debate are the last few shooting engagements in the Middle East: The USS Stark could not defend itself against two Exocet sea-skimming missiles; USS Vincennes Aegis cruiser fired BVR at what its crew thought was an attacking fighter and downed an Iranian airliner; and two F-14s fired twice at intruding Libyan fighters, missing them BVR with radar-guided Sparrows and shooting them down within visual range with a Sparrow and a heat-seeking Sidewinder.

The DOD has been trying since 1977 to give birth to the advanced medium range air-to-air missile (AMRAAM) as a replacement for the AIM-7 Sparrow and the AIM-9 Sidewinder. Almost 13 years later, the technical challenges of creating the AMRAAM are still to be met. One of those responsible for developing the missile in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, Charles E. Myers, says "the drive to create it was a reflection of the frustrations in the radar weapons community."

The dogfight was consigned to the scrapheap of history when radar-guided missiles appeared in the '50s. Guns disappeared from from fighter planes, and missiles were hung in their place to defend U.S. borders and naval vessels from air attack. Sorting friend from foe was never considered worrisome, even at the higher closing speeds of jet aircraft and greater firing range of the airborne missile. Then came Vietnam and what one-time combat pilot Myers calls "military-political gymnastics" instead of a real air war.

Suddenly, a minor enemy arose who put up a limited air challenge with inferior MiGs. The U.S. fielded its front-line fighters, in particular the F-4 Phantom II, which had been designed for fleet defense rather than violent close-combat aerial maneuvering. Back came the dogfight, but since pilots had little dogfight training and worried about killing their buddies, the Americans did not do well, especially with radar-guided Sparrows and especially beyond visual range.

Even though Vietnam drove home the lesson that pilots and aircraft must learn to dogfight within visual range, the air services asked for improved radar missiles. The AMRAAM emerged, supported by advocates inside and outside the DOD. To score a kill during a swirling dogfight, a pilot would have to launch missiles one after the other at multiple targets, a dubious tactic quickly called "launch-and-leave." "What no one wanted to say," says Myers, "is that they already had a missile that did this -- the cheap, accurate heat-seeking Sidewinder."

At $ 500,000 a missile, the AMRAAM solution has a cost 10 times higher than a Sidewinder. It is so expensive that the services have been forced to stop buying the Sidewinder because they can no longer afford both radar-guided and heat-seeking missiles.

In the AMRAAM project office, Air Force Col. James Burton had been handed the job of collecting hard information on the effectiveness of missiles in air-to-air combat. Burton studied all 407 known missile kills made in the air since 1958 (except for the 1967 Middle East war and Pakistan's 1971 clash with India), focusing hard on the 2,014 missile firings made during the Vietnam War and the 1973 and 1982 Middle East skirmishes.

Burton fast became one of the most unpopular men in the Pentagon. He titled the briefing he gave on his findings "Letting Combat Results Shape the Next Air-to-Air Missile." His findings? Of more than 260 Arab aircraft knocked down by Israel in 1973, only five fell to Sparrows in 12 firings. Of the 632 Sparrows fired in all the wars Burton studied, only 73 destroyed the airplane they were fired at, for a kill rating of 11%. The ancient Sidewinder did almost three times better: of some 1,000 Sidewinder firings, 308 kills resulted in a kill rating of 30%.

In Southeast Asia, Sparrow had such a poor reputation that pilots routinely ripple-fired their Sparrows, firing off two or more in a row rather than taking a chance on a single shot. Even though few fighters came to Vietnam equipped with guns, they had a better kill rating than Sparrow-equipped fighters. Burton found that guns actually made about one-third of all the kills counted in Vietnam.

To the horror of those he briefed, Burton told them he found only four BVR kills in all the wars he covered. What is more, each of the four (two by Israel, two by F04s in Vietnam) was carefully staged outside the confusion of combat to prove BVR's combat worthiness. One Southeast Asia kill was listed as a MiG-21 when it was really an F-4 mistakenly identified and shot down using Combat Tree, the BVR identification equipment of the era that was supposed to sort friend from foe. According to Burton, the only reason Israel went after its two BVR kills was strong pressure from the U.S. to establish BVR doctrine.

In summarizing how the 407 missile kills were made, Burton came up with some unsettling conclusions:

* Most targets were unaware and were fired on from the rear.

* An insignificant number of targets were aware and maneuvered hard to avoid the attack.

* Many rear shots were fired from above the target, making them more difficult shots to hit.

* There were almost no head-on BVR shots because of the high closing speeds of the aircraft involved.

Even though BVR shots were almost nonexistent in the wars Burton studied, he reached one unsettling conclusion: "The most dominant aspect of missile air combat to date has been the requirement to positively identify the target." And the only sure way to do that has been by eye.

When validation tests were under way in the late '70s, on the air combat missiles and doctrines of the next generation, the cry went up that the results would be useless since most of the flying was done under clear air visual conditions and BVR shooting was so limited. Myers suggested giving AMRAAM's proposed operational BVR parameters and air-to-air anti-radiation missiles (ARMs) to Red Force. This would give everybody some rules and results worth measuring, but the idea was struck down by the AMRAAM office. Clearly, the new rules might have pointed up radar's inherent weakness: A simple, inexpensive missile like ARM can home in on radar and kill in an instant.

In 1984, Burton managed to have the idea tested in McDonnell Douglas' differential maneuvering simulators. The results were devastating. Over and over, ARM-equipped fighters shot down AMRAAM aircraft and missiles. The results were turned over to the AMRAAM office, which invalidated them and threw out the exercise. In airborne tests in Nevada, Red Force aircraft using simple radar homing and warning devices could see Blue Force AMRAAM radars coming on 10 mi. away. The warnings allowed Red Force to turn away and beat the missile. When the AMRAAM radar was reset to come on 5 mi. from the target aircraft, the change negated the longed-for BVR scenario.

In addition, the missile's fabled multiple-target tracking and killing capability turned out to be no more effective than single-target shooting, either in simulations or live aerial firings. "The simple launch-and-leave ARM casts a pall over the whole issue since it homes in perfectly on an illuminating radar," says Defense Dept. analyst Thomas Amlie. "This means you can't use AMRAAM, AIM-7, Phoenix, or any other radar-guided missile in combat."

Meanwhile, the USSR has a well-developed series of ARMs, including the AA-10 Alamo for air-to-air combat. They have also converted the AS-4 Kitchen and AS-6 Kingfish, both with 2,200-lb warheads, into ARMs. Notes Amlie: "They never throw anything away. Flying at Mach 3+, these are a tremendous threat to the U.S. fleet, which is virtually bathed in radar. Now our prime weapons systems, such as Aegis, STARS, E-3A, Patriot, and Hawk, are in serious jeopardy."

Targeting the enemy has never proved difficult for the Soviets, especially with American fighters. "All fighter radars in the U.S. transmit on the same frequency, right around 10,000 MHz, to get all-weather capability," Amlie says. "That is very convenient, a missile designer's dream. The Soviets have no need for IFF transponder identification since their radar frequencies are higher or lower, so ARM use is almost risk free, even in a mixed air-to-air fight." As soon as U.S. pilots turn on their radars, the opposition gets some valuable information as well -- how many fighters are out there, their nationality, their direction, whether they are locked on to fire, and type of fighter -- based on their radar pulse signature.

The pilot firing the ARM still has problems, such as obtaining distance from the target, the need for his own radar to paint the target and give its range, the possibility of the ARM homing in on multiple enemy and friendly radars in the air, ground, and sea, and the very strong possibility of homing in on decoys. Regardless, the mere presence of ARMs in the air can lead to everyone turning off their radars, which puts the real combat arena squarely back into the visual, maneuvering, close-up fight that, AMRAAM supporters say, is not likely to happen because of the "reality" of BVR combat.

In 1969, the DOD tried to test an air-to-air ARM developed from the Sparrow airframe under the project name Brazo. At modest cost, three test firings destroyed three target drones. Amlie says the program "was cancelled when it could be interpreted as eliminating large radar fighters such as the F-14 and F-15, since the tests proved you could not use a radar fighter in combat when up against ARMs. The only countermeasure was to turn the radars off, so everything was swept under a rug." Now, department rumblings suggest that development of an air-to-air ARM is again under consideration.

The host of U.S. radar-based weapons are all vulnerable to ARMs. The E-3A AWACS has a superb radar antenna that can detect hundreds of targets simultaneously -- and can itself be seen at extremely long distances. An AS-4 or -6 could be launched 300-400 mi. away and home in on it with ease. The same is true for the 40 Aegis cruisers and destroyers destined for fleet service with the Navy. With hundreds of Soviet ARMs ready for firing from submarines, surface ships, aircraft, and land, a U.S. carrier battle group, heavily dependent on radar, might be in serious trouble, especially if the missiles were sea-skimmers.

At best, Navy countermeasures are limited against so simple a weapon. Sea-skimmers pop up over the radar horizon a bare 14 mi. away, and when radar does detect the missile, the radar reflections bounce off the waves, making it difficult to determine altitude, thus throwing off tracking. A third Soviet line of attack comes from their radar jammers, among the world's most powerful.

Pilots of B-1 and B-2 bombers penetrating Soviet airspace most likely will use terrain-following radar to stay low and avoid detection. Using inexpensive radar finders, like the fuzzbusters motorists use to avoid police speed traps, on hiss surrounded by flat terrain, the Soviets should have no trouble seeing the bombers coming. And Soviet radar homing and warning equipment can pick up VHF transmissions or over-the-horizon radar from distant approaching aircraft. In fact, the whole issue of stealth technology could become moot, if one considers that a radar antenna runs along the entire length of a B-2 wing's leading edge. Once in visual range, stealth is irrelevant. It is more than probable that an F-117 or a B-2 can be found, identified, and shot down using basic common sense. The F-117 has to make such wide turns that its survival in a visual air-to-air fight is precarious.

Myers, who proposed the first stealth aircraft ideas under Project Harvey (after the famous invisible rabbit), is extremely disappointed over where things have ended up. He recommended a small, inexpensive aircraft that would be hard to find with radar and eye. Yes, payload would have been small, but the idea was to confuse the opposition. "Suppose I weigh only 75 lb, with the payload of a hatpin, but I'm visible," he says. "How much trouble and chaos could I cause in the enemy camp?" A small aircraft carrying a small ARM and a gun, Myers' original stealth plane was to effectively blind the enemy by taking out radar vans and emplacements. The F-117 seems to have a similar mission, but had to be bigger to carry weapons like the Maverick missile as required by current Air Force doctrine.

Still, a growing number of soldiers and analysts are asking tough questions about the future of radar warfare. "We cannot go around radiating signals," says Amlie. "The French sell a missile to the entire Third World that will hit an Aegis every time. We are building a peacetime military that will never be effective in combat."

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fwa2500
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there was a nice article in Air & Space a while back that talked about dogfight training and this group of guys that filled the bandit role using 'obsolete' A-4's and stomped on the newer planes.......

in a duel, which is more proper, fighting face to face with swords or killing the other guy with a sniper rifle before they even see you? i personally do not like the physical detatchment that war has these days, all you do is push a button, you dont see the other guy, just a blip on the radar screen...its like a video game, you have no contact with them, just a blip....i mean, even in Star Wars, with all the technology they had, they were still dogfighting in space, even with lasers...........in the world wars, you could see the other person, you could see there was a human inside the machine, not just a blip on a screen....when you shot thier plane and it blew up, you knew you had just killed somone, and you felt that inside you "what have i done?"...not "oh, that blip is gone from my radar".......


i could go on and on and on, but im getting tired and should get to sleep......


EDIT: wow....i left out one word when i wrote that and it gave it a whole different meaning.....the way it was made me sound like i like the detatched killing...i absolutly DO NOT like that.....
Last edited by fwa2500 on 17 Apr 2006, 01:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Scuderia_Russ
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Thought the plane lovers in this thread would appreciate this.

It's detailed here http://www.aviationdimension.com/

[IMG:758:502]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/ ... SC1327.jpg[/img]

[IMG:756:502]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v284/ ... SC1271.jpg[/img]

manchild
manchild
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8) never saw such thing before...

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Tom
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Up at London Science museum yesterday, they have an area where they managed to hang at least 10 real planes from the cealing. inc Wright brothers replica, chopper, Spit and Hurri and even a Hawker Harrier!
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

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f1.redbaron
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And so, the discussion moves into the next chapter...

I have to be honest, when I first glanced at that article, the publishing date caught my attention. You have posted an article written over a decade-and-a-half ago. In January of 1990, Operation Desert Storm hadn't even taken place. And, if my memory serves me correct, most of the air-to-air kills in the Desert Storm were achieved by the same AIM-7 missiles, which are badmouthed in that article.

On top of it, some of the other dates mentioned, made me realize that I should not spend too much time reading this article (I mean no disrespect, I just saw the length of an article, and after a few paragraphs, I decided to skim through the rest of it, really, really fast). The article talks about the Vietnam war (mid-60's to early 70's), the Yom Kippur War in 1973...this is all ancient history in terms of today's technological advancements. Both wars happened a long time ago, and, let's face it, AIM-7B cannot really be compared to today's AIM-120C (I believe that C is the latest version).

USS Stark...doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion. It was hit by the two Exocet missiles launched by an Iraqi aircraft. That ship was equipped with a Phalanx gun, but, if my memory serves me correct, it wasn't working properly. However, had it worked, I don't believe that that ship would've been sunk.

USS Vincennes...another, completely unrelated, incident. Vincennes launched a radar-guided missile at an airliner, yes, but I don't understand, how is that relevant to the disussion about the modern air-to-air combat. And for the record, that incident was caused by a nervous gung-ho captain who was out of his area of operations.

(I know that you're not directly using these examples, but I'm just trying to point out why I don't really like the article).

Then, they start talking about the TFR on B-2 bombers. Again, the TFR (Terrarin Following Radar) goes against the whole STEALTH beliefs...B-2 doesn't want to use it's radars. I know that I haven't kept up with the current air-combat situations (or anything related to modern Air Forces), but I know that F-117 was not equipped with any kind of radar (to prevent pilot from giving away his position), and I don't believe that B-2 has one, either...I believe that they rely on GPS, and not TFR - why, in the first place, would they need a TFR to begin with? B-2 operates at mid- to high-altitudes...just like they did in Kosovo and Afghanistan.

The article did say something I agree with, though...the STEALTH technology is completely useless one within visual range. But it's not like that's something new. Once within the visual range, all an enemy pilot has to do is use his IR missiles, and game-over for the defenceless STEALTH plane.

But, it may not even need to come to that. During the war in Kosovo in 1999, Serb forces had managed to shoot-down a STEALTH aircraft using primitive (from 1960's!) Russian-made SA-3 missiles with some modifications. Basically, the F-117 found himself tracked by 3 different radars located at three different positions. The actual positon of that aircraft was triangulated, and the rest is history...I don't want to get into too many details...this is going seriously off-topic.

The point I'm trying to make, is that in 2006, air combat is fundamentally different. Since the mid-90's, US shot-down no "enemy" airplanes with missiles other than medium-range AMRAAM's. I will, again, try to find an article I was talking about, and hopefully, it will illustrate my point.

Cheers.