Saddam Dead

[West]

Well, there's that Team America quote from the Film Actors Guild (use your imagination to create an acronym for them, in case you haven't seen the movie):

Janeane Garofalo: "Our job as actors is to read the newspapers, and repeat what we've read on TV, like it is our own opinion"

[Ray]

So very true West. I love that movie because the way they make fun of how stupid actors are.

Were you in San Diego during the wildfires back in 2003?

[manchild]

Within 2 days of Katrina hitting Marines from my neck of the woods, Camp Pendelton, were on the scene helping out and giving food and medical help to anyone and everyone.

Within 2 days that's exactly what is shameless about it.

Where did they head from, Alaska? Hawaii? 2 days man!

Truck moving only 60kph would cross 2880 kilometers in 48 hours. So where was army heading from? What about helicopters and the navy?

People decided to stay? Not true. If the government organized evacuation than no one by default would be allowed to stay and would be transported against his will if necessary. Did patients in the hospitals also decided to stay? Why didn't government evacuate them? Or children?

I'm convinced that majority of New Orleans population was simply seen by Bush's government as useless ballast that should be lost. If any lower lever of local government wasn't doing its job properly it was responsibility of federal government to take immediate actions on spot without waiting. Instead of that they've presented it as failure of local governments and officials without any responsibility from Washington.

In such situations government of any country has absolute authorization over local governments and local governments are to obey highest authority. If people of New Orleans are good enough to pay taxes to federal government than federal government had to constantly watch and analyze actions of local governments and officials and to take drastic measures in order to save their citizens.

Regarding Iraq not having anything to do with quality of help given to New Orleans... well, just think how many people could have been evacuated on a singe carrier or how many food and water could have been brought by choppers. Where was USNS Mercy when Katrina occurred? It wasn't there. That's 1000 hospital beds less. Why? Because it was on stand by in case it was needed in Iraq. Priorities, priorities...

Please don't think that I hate USA. I like it very much, as a teenager I've seen it as a dream land... it gave this world so much, it liberated Europe and saved the world from expansion of Japan and Germany. I won't even mention how many desperate people found a safe home on its land and how great influence on human rights worldwide it had and still has but certain things like conservatives in a form of white-Christian racists are constantly doing harm to US society and trough US influence and might they harm whole world. Their ideas and civilizational level is very similar to Bin Laden's. Yes they are wealthy, nicely dressed and have no similarity with religious fanatics from middle east but that's exactly what they are-religious fanatics and of top of that hypocrite religious fanatics breaking every commandment every single day.

Everyone has right to believe in whatever he wants, that's a private and personal thing but in US there are still very strong influence of certain Churches, organization and enormously rich individuals linked to them on domestic and foreign politics. US doesn't needs "In god we trust", "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me god", "Swear on the Bible" etc. That makes US a Christian Jamahiriya that is in war with Islamic Jamahiriyas. US was leading the way when it matters human rights development for decades and than it stopped making US look very backward in that area compared to most of EU countries.

So, I (and I think most of the people here who criticize Bush) don't hate US and don't hate Americans but on the contrary - because of our admiration towards US we're pointing out things that we see as bad ones. That's not even positive critics but something much, much milder. We know US could be much better and trough its influence the whole world could be much better if democracy in US could shake off corporate and religious parasites and become a true democracy.

[Ray]

Nothing is obviously good enough for you manchild. The Marines went there and crawled through the muck to help. Still not good enough. Whatever. Like I said before, we are damned if we do, damned if we don't. I'm done arguing about how Bush is not the single person that is at fault. I don't even like the guy. But he is not the only one who failed, but people like you don't care, it's all a great opportunity to show your displeasure. Do you live in the US?

[Ray]

Oh by the way.

I'm not saying fingers shouldn't be pointed at him. Not at all. He was partly at fault. But so were all the others involved and I say they should get 'credit' too.

And on the 'In God we trust'. This country was founded by Christians. That's our foundation and tradition, no reason to change it. The politicians are the ones mucking things up, not religion. So get off your high horse on religion. That's what our history is and if people don't like it, they can leave. I'm not going to change my traditions because people who don't live here and disagree. There, I'm a religious nut too. Whatever.

[West]

So very true West. I love that movie because the way they make fun of how stupid actors are.

Were you in San Diego during the wildfires back in 2003?

Yeah I was... it was terrible. I couldn't breathe. Fortunately I wasn't close to the fires, but the smoke was horrible. I was still in school so fortunately, I took it as an excuse to go back to Orange County where I was studying (University of California, Irvine). I believe it was some idiot hunter who didn't know how to put out a campfire.

[G-Rock]

And on the 'In God we trust'. This country was founded by Christians. That's our foundation and tradition, no reason to change it. The politicians are the ones mucking things up, not religion. So get off your high horse on religion. That's what our history is and if people don't like it, they can leave. I'm not going to change my traditions because people who don't live here and disagree. There, I'm a religious nut too. Whatever.

Well, that depends how far back you go in history cracker. An aborigninal- canadian friend of mine has a t-shirt has that has a picture of an old native war hero, Tecumseh and reads "Fighting terrorism since 1812"

Sure christians may run your country now but that could change sometime in the future. The same in Northern Europe. It wasn't always run by the caucasian race or christian religion.

If the people in your country don't agree with your traditions, then they will use their numbers to change the political climate until they do agree. That's democracy. The only way to discourage that is through isolationism to keep your country nice and christian like.

[Ray]

Did you call me cracker? WTF?

[Evil Weasel]

“Yeah, too bad it wasn't shown live so the conspiracy theorists won't gripe.”

What sort of immature, sick individual wants people’s deaths shown on live TV?

“Hope it hurt when the rope snapped tight.”

Again an unbelievably childish and pathetic comment made by someone that obviously has no understanding of humanity and thinks that the world is just like a Hollywood film.

“True he is dead. But you have to give the situation some time to develop. You can't expect his hanging to immediately bear fruit…”

Why would Saddam’s death bear any “fruit” – the other half a million dead Iraqis have achieved very little. In fact Saddam’s death will only make the situation worse. Saddam came from the Sunni minority, which are now out of power. The upshot of this is that the only people with any experience of running a country are now marginalised. On top of that they have been shown that the new Shi’ite powers delight in killing them after show trails and taunt them all the way to gallows. Why shouldn’t they take up arms? I can’t help thinking that Saddam faced his death with a lot more composure and dignity than Bush or Blair would in the same situation.

Saddam may have been a bad man, but it’s if that is the justification for his execution can we expect to George and Tony getting the short drop and sudden stop? They have been responsible for far more Iraqi deaths than Saddam was without any legal justification. They’re the heads of governments that have used torture on victims grabbed from their homes in the middle of the nights. Saddam gassed the Kurds. Terrible, yes. Bush and Blair destroyed the city of Fallujah when it wouldn’t yield to an illegal occupation. How about Bush’s approach to Islom Karimov? I suspect you have no childish comment to make on that front as your CNN sponsored knowledge on foreign policy doesn’t extend that far.

Mr. Karimov is the president of Uzbekistan. Mr. Karimov has a proclivity for taking his political opponents and boiling them alive, and sending troops to open fire on unarmed protesters. He kills entire families so that none of the relatives will be able to rise up at a later date. And how does the Bush administration respond to these terrible and tyrannical events. It gives Mr. Karimov’s government a lot of money, turns a blind eye to what are probably the worst violations off human rights on the planet and builds airbases there. Freedom and democracy don’t seem quite so important in that part of Asia?

“Can anyone honestly say that Americans are in control of any oil rig? And if they are why aren't we pumping it out of the ground and sending it here as fast as possible?”

Because their absolute inability to control the situation means that the pipelines are being destroyed more rapidly than they can coerce people into repairing them. The logic behind the invasion of Iraq is simple. The terrorist attacks on 11 Sepetember were because the US has “infidel” troops based in Saudi Arabia, the home of Mecca, since the first Gulf War. The only way that the US could remove those troops with admitting Osama had won was to remove their reason for being there. On top of that America uses 20 million barrels of oil, a day. Before the invasion of Iraq oil was about $25 a barrel. If freeing up Iraq’s oil supplies, which had been embargoed since 1991, could reduce the cost of a barrel by $1 dollar the US economy, in recession, would save $7.3 billion a year, and the best estimates prior to invasion was that the price would drop by $3-5. Instead when the invasion plan, which extended as far as rolling up in tanks outside Baghdad and waiting for everyone to ask for a McDonalds, didn’t work out it is now costing the US billions. If there weren’t so many dead and cripple people it would be enough to make you laugh.

“I could care less what happens in other countries, in the nicest way of course.”

Is there a nice way of saying that no one that isn’t American has any importance? I don’t think so. Since you have no interest in events beyond you own borders why don’t you refrain from commenting on them.

It really seems that American fail to understand that being a goodie or a baddie is not about which country you come from, but is determined by actions. America is not the goodie.

“I love that movie because the way they make fun of how stupid actors are.”

What sort of idiot can’t understand when they are being ridiculed? There’s a clue in the title.

[Tom]

Evil Weasel, you have summed the situation up better than any I've seen. No doubt many people will be pissed off with your comment but I might add that those are the bare bones of it and if you don't like it then why are you supporting that side?

[allan]

i have a suggestion guys...
why don't we change the name of the site from f1technical
to f1political

[Venom]

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm

[manchild]

...Do you live in the US?

Nope, I'm from Europe but I wish I had a chance to move to US when I was younger. I've never made my mind about where it would be... Montana looks like a nice place for people who don't like crowded streets but I also like Pacific ocean view idea although California seams to "desertish" to me (perhaps I'm wrong but not much shades from the trees there). Third option was always Miami and fourth NY's old Greenwich Village (I think it has most soul from all the places I've mentioned). *No particular order for these 4.



If however this "Do you live in the US" was intended to sound as "how can you judge about what's god and bad in US if you don't live in the US" all I can say is that I make my mind from info I get from media, documentaries etc.

If you think that's not sufficient than what was the insight citizens of US had when they decided that Hitler is a bad guy? It also came trough medias and in those days probably trough Film news shown in theaters, radio and newspapers which is a only a drop in the ocean of informations and viewpoints available today.

So I think Bush is a bad guy because of opinion I based on media reports and documentaries and that's the same way citizens of US made up their mind that Saddam is a bad guy and that he has weapons of mass destruction. If that info was enough for people of US to give their support to war than I think it is enough to give me alibi for my viewpoint that won't lead to anything similar as war.

And finally, please don't take this personal - it is like discussing Schuey. If I say bad things about Schuey or in this case Bush (any similarity is purely coincidental ) it is not attack on forum member who thinks differently but just a different opinion and reading different opinions is what forums are for. So no hard feelings, this is just a debate

[Ray]

First things first.

Evil Weasel I didn't mean that I wanted to watch his hanging live, I have no desire to see death on TV. I've seen it for real. I meant that the conspiracy theorist are going to get in an uproar that he wasn't actually hung. I only said that because I'm tired of hearing asinine comments form people who always say this or that didn't happen yet bring no facts to support their theories.

As for the bear fruit comment. I didn't mean that it was going to change things in respect to stopping people from being murdered. I meant that a general reaction to it would take longer than a few hours after it happened. That the reaction to it may not be immediate. That's all.

My rope comment was that he gave no remorse gassing people and using chemical weapons on innocent people. So I could care less if he feels pain. I am very human, I know what pain is. I got robbed two weeks ago. Someone broke into my house, ransacked the place and stole a set of wheels I saved for three years to buy. I would have no remorse if that guy were to have broken in my house while I was at home (I was out of town visiting family in Mississippi) and I severely hurt him or her or them. They had no second thoughts about depriving me of my belonging, so I would not feel bad about hurting them. I am not violent in any way, but if you don't care about my well being and care less if you hurt me, I have the same feeling toward that person as well.

The oil rig thing is out of proportion already. I was only asking if anyone could show me that the US is in control of an oil rig in Iraq, like so many people have accused. I can't recall nor find anyone on here who said that in as many words, but the implication was there.

I meant the care less comment in a different way. Maybe I said it wrong. I don't care what your beliefs are, I don't want to supress them either. I'm just not concerned to the point of sleeplessness what the daily goings on of other countries. And I also think that we the US should stay out of other people business unless directly attacked or asked for help. That's all. I don't want my tax dollars, which are stolen from me, to go to some guy like Karimov. And I sure as hell don't like the UN. Nations should be soverign, not interconnected by one entity that can rule without a system of checks and balances. Which is what the US is turning into everyday. Which I don't like either. This current govt under Bush is not entirely at fault. These things have been going on for more than 50 years. It's just now coming to a head, and I don't think it's right to blame just one person. The blame should be widespread. That's why I'm not voting for any sitting politician in this country. We need change for the better and current candidates are not the answer. We need 'new blood' so to speak. And before anyone quotes me on that, I mean fresh ideas and new people that aren't corrupted like the current crop.

I don't like how our country does it's business either, I agree with all of you. But the destruction of Fallujah was not directed towards the townsfolk of Fallujah. It was against people that want to kill all those that don't believe in there religion. If you've never had to fight an enemy that looks like the common citizen, it's VERY hard to distinguish friend from foe. We have the TIGHTEST restrictions on who we can and can't shoot. We have to be fired upon first, so the wantan shooting at random people doesn't happen like you guys would think from media reports. The common townsfolk of Fallujah loved the fact that we were rooting those people out. I WAS THERE. So don't tell me what happened in Fallujah, or Iraq for that matter unless you have been there.

The movie stars comment was more about Matt Damon than anything. He has no right, or place, to tell anyone what they should make their kids do. They always tell us how we should do things without actually doing it themselves. That's why I don't like them. They think that because they can act they are entitled to tell people what is right and wrong. They use their 'star' status to promote their own agendas. Which is very tacky to me.

Manchild.

No I didn't mean it in the way of, don't tell me what to do. I was just curious. Sorry to make it seem so.

[Ray]

Since we are talking about govt and the like, I thought you guys would find this amusing.

On Cows and Government

FEUDALISM You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk


PURE SOCIALISM You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need.


BUREAUCRATIC SOCIALISM You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and as many eggs as the regulations say you should need.


FASCISM You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of them, and sells you the milk.


PURE COMMUNISM You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.


RUSSIAN COMMUNISM You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.


DICTATORSHIP You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.


SINGAPORE DEMOCRACY You have two cows. The government fines
you for keeping two unlicensed animals in an apartment.


MILITARIANISM You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.


PURE DEMOCRACY You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.


REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.


AMERICAN DEMOCRACY The government promises to give you two cows if you vote for it. After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures. The press dubs the affair "Cowgate".


BRITISH DEMOCRACY You have two cows. You feed them sheep's brains and they go mad. The government doesn't do anything.


BUREAUCRACY You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. After that it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.


ANARCHY You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbors kill you and take the cows.


CAPITALISM You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.


HONG KONG CAPITALISM You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax deduction for keeping five cows. The milk rights of six cows are transferred via a Panamanian intermediary to a Cayman Islands company secretly owned by the majority shareholder, who sells the rights to all seven cows' milk back to the listed company. The annual report says that the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. Meanwhile, you kill the two cows because the Feng Shui is bad.


ENVIRONMENTALISM You have two cows. The government bans you from milking or killing them.


FEMINISM You have two cows. They get married and adopt a veal calf.


TOTALITARIANISM You have two cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned.


POLITICAL CORRECTNESS You are associated with (the concept of "ownership"is a symbol of the phallo-centric, war-mongering, intolerant past) two differently-aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non-specified gender.


COUNTER CULTURE Wow, dude, there's like... these two cows, man. You got to have some of this milk. Far out! Awesome!


SURREALISM You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.


JAPANESE DEMOCRACY You have two cows. You give the milk to gangsters so they don't ask any awkward questions about who you're giving the milk to.


EUROPEAN FEDERALISM You have two cows which cost too much money to care for because everybody is buying milk imported from some cheap east-European country and would never pay the fortune you'd have to ask for your cows' milk. So you apply for financial aid from the European Union to subsidise your cows and are granted enough subsidies. You then sell your milk at the former elevated price to some government-owned distributor which then dumps your milk onto the market at east-European prices to make Europe competitive. You spend the money you got as a subsidy on two new cows and then go on a demonstration to Brussels complaining that the European farm-policy is going drive you out of your job.


EASTERN EUROPEAN DEMOCRACY You have two cows. You sell the milk (diluted with some water) at a high price to the neighbors or to anyone at the open-air market. If somebody asks for receipt, you charge for a two times higher price, so nobody will request an invoice. For concerned families with small babies you claim that the milk is "bio", though you collect the grass for feeding at the side of the highway and you keep the milk in plastic barrels used previously as containers of dangerous chemicals. Later, your neighbor or anybody from town will steal the cows and will buy their meat for a high price, and if you ask for a receipt, you will be charged for a two times higher price.


FINNISH SOCIALISM You have two cows. Soon you have to kill one of them because in the Netherlands there is an overproduction of milk and the European Union rules say so. When you do so, you realize that it was not necessary, only the system was too slow in getting you the up-to-date news. From the stress, you get an ulcer in your stomach so you go to a doctor. The doctor realizes that this ulcer is a serious one, so you need an urgent treatment. Therefore, you soon get a call to the local hospital. The call's date is for 3 months later, because there is a queue with more urgent cases. Then your ulcer becomes even more serious because you remember that 40 percent of your income is taken for social tax.