F you Bernie! from the USA

[SZ]

[fanboy mode=off]I just completely fail to understand why some ppl want F1 to become something completely different and something they ALREADY have in other series... let me just watch the sport I love... for some reason I don't come to football (the one with non-spherical ball) forums and claim that it sucks and needs to apply football (they call it soccer in the US) rules to become better [/fanboy mode]

(like the white text. nice touch.)

the only things these people want f1 to have that you already have in other series are:

-overtaking
-racing to the flag
-real competition up and down the grid
-some personality among those involved

you can't be a real f1 fan and not be disappointed in the current state of competition within the sport.

[jaslfc]

I think we can keep on arguing but the truth is, most of us are not directly affected. How many people in this forum actually was a regular in the usgp.
So i say we tried US, didnt make it. maybe few years time we will go back there... we have so many other beautiful tracks and places to go.

[F1 Observer]

[fanboy mode=off]I just completely fail to understand why some ppl want F1 to become something completely different and something they ALREADY have in other series... let me just watch the sport I love... for some reason I don't come to football (the one with non-spherical ball) forums and claim that it sucks and needs to apply football (they call it soccer in the US) rules to become better [/fanboy mode]

(like the white text. nice touch.)

the only things these people want f1 to have that you already have in other series are:

-overtaking
-racing to the flag
-real competition up and down the grid
-some personality among those involved

you can't be a real f1 fan and not be disappointed in the current state of competition within the sport.

DITTO!!!

Personally I watch F1 nowadays because I'm an incorrigible addict.

For pleasure,and when I want to see some real racing, I turn to the DTM or the MOTO GP, or American Racing Series (tough to find over here in Europe unfortunately...Thank God for Eurosport 2!)

[Scuderia_Russ]

You mean Mosley?

Bernie would support USGP even with no direct profit for him but US organizer can't or won't do it without profit and chances for profit were killed by USGP 2005.

It's not Mosely's fault Michelin couldn't make a tyre capable of running at Indy in '05!

[manchild]

It's not Mosely's fault Michelin couldn't make a tyre capable of running at Indy in '05!

It's his fault that he didn't give the show to audience and that had same effect on future of US GP as Ferrari last lap team order had on the future of Austrian GP.

[modbaraban]

the only things these people want f1 to have that you already have in other series are:

-overtaking
-racing to the flag
-real competition up and down the grid
-some personality among those involved

you can't be a real f1 fan and not be disappointed in the current state of competition within the sport.

just added some white text with no specific purpose... I hope u like it. Let's not discuss what I can be/am or can't be/ain't.
This usually leads to locking the topic

these points you mentioned sound good but If it takes dropping things that are missing in series like NASCAR I'd rather leave things as they are.

overtaking - basketball won't get more exciting than football (the real one) only because of high scores (generally in basketball the ball hits the 'goal' 30-50 times as often as in football - so what?).
I mean if overtaking is so easy it gets devaluated (for me at least).
racing to the flag - points system might be the solution. 1 engine per 2 GPs really harms the sport in this aspect.
real competition up and down the grid - well if 10 grid slots within 1 second is not real competition... (end of the thought).
some personality among those involved - despite the good things BE has done to F1 over the years the further commercializing of the sport harms (already harmed) this aspect. There was a nice interview on this with D.Hill about a year ago in F1Racing mag.

[vyselegend]

I don't understand why everyone want to draw a parallel between Formula one and nascar. It's the case everytime we talk about F1 and america.
In my country, people only think about footbal, it's footbal every day of the week on tv, when you open the newspaper's so called "Sport" pages, it's only about footbal too. You see the picture? And we just lost our national GP in the general disinterest, given it's not footbal... (yes I know the Zidane footbal star was at Magny Cours, but it didn't change anything, did it?)
What I mean is that even if both are sport, I can't seriously put the blame on footbal when we loose F1.
I personnaly failed to find interest in nascar every time I tried it on Motors TV, but for me it's not crap, it's just like footbal, criket, golf, or let's say boat racing,to stick with motorsports: they're sports I'm not sensible to. An "apples or oranges" case IMO, athough this is an easy "cliché".
Nascar is nascar, F1 is F1, period.

Second point, about the holy thing you all pray as a God: overtaking. Everyone complain F1 is boring because there's no overtaking. But I think this is what bored me the most when I watched nascar, even more than the left turns repetition: overtaking loose all it's glory when it becomes a common thing, you see a car passing another, but why does it matter when it happens fifty times in the same race? How do you want to feel lucky when you pic a four-leaf clover, if 3/4 of clovers have four leaves...

If some overtaking moves really can drive us crazy and makes us love the race, it's because they are memorables, incredibly tight and risky moves to put together for the driver who tries it!
I looked at champ car and irl (and nascar as I said) on TV, and there was overtaking (lots of) but it wasn't raising the 1/1000 of the pleasure of a (rare) F1 overtaking move.

Just my two cents like you say. I hope I managed to avoid getting on anyone's nerves.

[rdsspeed]

Well, I joined today to respond to some of the comments about the F1's lack of success over here (US). For starters, I really appreciate the fact that people have blamed the Americans for the lack of success, while to most you (not all), Bernie and his elitist attitude has nothing to do with this.

I am an American and have watched F1 for 40 years (as of this year in Monaco). We are quite use to s--t coverage, and believe me things have improved dramatically over the past 15 years with cable and satellite. In fact, it's almost as easy to get to see a race as it is in Europe. So, that is not the problem.

Scott Speed or for that matter no single driver is going to swing the American audience in favor of F1 - the audience is here, it doesn't need an American driving to get us to watch. In fact, before Scott was driving the audience at Indy was larger than it is now. So, that too, is not the answer.

The "Not Made Here" mentally is not to blame, we are open to anything that is done well, and can you say that about your respective countries? Those of you in the UK, Latin Americans - when was the last time your country took to a sport not invented by you out shown "football". I didn't think people in this forum were that naive to believe that 300 million people think alike! I can safely say in the 40 years of being a fan - I have watched the popularity grow - most of this in spite of a lack of a USGP.

The Americans are dullards! I loved the comment about NASCAR being from the South and we have a lot of dumb people in the South, and NASCAR is a simple sport they can understand. Well, I ask, how is F1 more complicated once the cars are running? Left and Right Turns? Wow, I think any moron with an IQ of three digits can get F1, racing is racing - and oh, by the way, many of us idiots from the South, don't like NASCAR either, nor do we like the current state of open wheel racing in America in general.

So what is it? What is the problem? As I see it - EGO! Bernie certainly has one that is oversized as does Tony George, owner of the INDY track, and neither wants to serve the other, each feels that they have the necessary element that makes the picture complete.

An associate of mine witnessed first-hand the exchange between the Indy folks and the F1 gang at the last race - the meeting lasted less than 15 minutes. Not exactly a way to keep a business relationship going.

In the end F1 dies and is reborn in the US every few years because Bernie thinks he's got it figured or he is pressured. But he can do street tracks, do INDY, do big cities like Los Angeles or Dallas - but in the end a sport that holds 1 race every year and has only held about 11 in the past 17 years is not going to succeed against sports that are based - not made - but based in the US.

If the F1 world were split up into different divisions that held more races that could be accessed more regularly, it would certainly attract more fans. This will never happen, unless Bernie buys the IRL and trashes the cars they are using (which isn't a bad idea).

I wonder how popular F1 would be in Europe if every race except for Monaco were cancelled and everything was moved to the Far East?

I leave you with this. About 2 weeks after Indy, I was in my local bar (pub). An Englishman asked me why more Americans didn't show an interest in F1, I explained to him we do, you just have to ask. Sure enough two total strangers overheard what we said and quickly chimed in that they had been at Canada and Indy- so there you go! Couldn't swing a stick without hitting an F1 fan....and in the US.

[Saribro]

You mean Mosley?

Bernie would support USGP even with no direct profit for him but US organizer can't or won't do it without profit and chances for profit were killed by USGP 2005.

It's not Mosely's fault Michelin couldn't make a tyre capable of running at Indy in '05!

Yes it is, Michelin had a tyre that could handle it, but they brought a different one thinking it would be OK, and weren't allowed to change anymore after the problem became apparent, and the emergency chicane idea to make the one they brought work, got shot down aswell.

[modbaraban]

Second point, about the holy thing you all pray as a God: overtaking..............

How do you want to feel lucky when you pic a four-leaf clover, if 3/4 of clovers have four leaves...

That's exactly what I was talking about!

Amazing avatar, btw (credits to MC?)

[SZ]

"overtaking" doesn't necessarily mean a NASCAR style procession. it'd just be great to see the races won and run out of pit stops. people were drawing an extremely long bow to suggest that "F1 didn't work in the south because people are simple and like NASCAR"... it's a MEGA long bow to suggest that overtaking has to be anything like NSACAR. complete bullshit... you're insulting the fans when you say that.

the ability to pull off on-the-limit moves in powerful race cars is WHY these guys are F1 drivers.

yes, the overtaking moves in F1 are rare, nice, but getting them to happen between cars fighting for serious positions is rarer than a four leaf clover. and that sucks. the cars are capable, the drivers are capable, and if the competition featured more competitiveness you'd better believe everyone from team principal to driver would support their driver putting it on the line to overtake the guy in front. they won't be too concerned about a risky move... i can't stress it enough, it's WHAT THESE GUYS ARE PAID FOR.

doing what they can to finish first is why they race. at the moment, what they can do on track is limited by the state of competition.

there's no competitiveness up and down the grid when you're stretching 4 seconds to cover the entire grid in a biased qualifying system... between that and the ridiculous two engine rule we have there's rarely a hope in hell of having the top 2 FINISH within 10 seconds of each other.

after they passed each other in the pits, of course.

that's not a race, that's bullshit.

and agreed, the points system is flawed. 10/8 is ridiculous. go back to 10/6, or at least a bigger disparity for winning.

for god's sake the reigning world champion has gone on record stating that he's waiting for some "bad luck" to befall his rookie teammate so that he can get back on top of the championship. that's crap. if this is the pinnacle of motorsport it's not the pinnacle of racing competition.

if you like a purely "strategic" race you could just as easily take quali time, some flying laps in race trim and in/out pit times and work out a winner. it's certainly not how they do it in the junior formulas.

noone wants that. it's just the state of competition.

we are open to anything that is done well

that about sums up my experience with US culture. amazingly welcoming people. says a lot if a venture doesn't succeed in the US.

PS not to drag up an old one... but i still don't get why the michelin cars didn't run the FIA proposal in indy 05.... would have been better.

[enkidu]

This is getting pretty heated! But some really good points made by you US guys. We know the failings of F1, but hopefuly they are being addressed with the new rules. Main issue with overtaking is the aero, you struggle to get close to other teams. 2011 they are moving to underfloor downforce and reducing wings, a perfect solution in my opinion.

The 2 race engine rule, I know it does cause some teams to back the power off but whats the point in changing the engine every race?? Do you change your cars engine every service? No.... It forces the manufactures to design engines! This is something the US lacks!!! I drive a 2.0L 4 cylinder car here which produces 300BHP at the fly, the cars not special or expensive its just been tuned 0-62 in 5 seconds(FWD) and top speed is 160 mph, gearing issues lol. In the us you'd need a 5L V8 to even get close to that performance. This is what F1 is all about technology..............

The other downside is FIA keep changing the rules. Teams are forced to design new solutions and new cars. When this happens there is only a max 4 teams currently that can make a good car. This year its been 2 once again, if they stop changing the rules the other teams could all catch up.

I think you will be seeing more overtaking next year when traction control is banned as driver error will allow the car behind to come past. We can only hope!

Reason I dont watch any american racin is its not on TV in england. But NASCAR don't really interest me, INDY probably would and your touring cars would....

Anyway my 2 pence worth

[SZ]

the US certainly doesn't lack for automotive technology.

automotive firms build what they can sell. if the european market demanded every second car be an F150, then have a guess what GM/Opel, Fiat, etc would be building. if the US market demands change to want small, high-strung, more-efficient vehicles, that's what the US manufacturers will provide if they want to stay profitable.

there are other threads on how to improve f1, so back on topic -

i think earlier comments asking people to contrast already successful formula series in the US and F1 are a good suggestion.

rdsspeed the US is certainly fortunate to have it's own premier formula racing series; if you can't bring F1 to the states more than once/twice a year, what's your take on making it popular in the US?

[modbaraban]

quite agree to the post above.

Maybe the solution would be making some sort of special race in the US. (re)Building a unique fascinating track would be a nice solution. The only positive thing sbout curren Indy (F1GP layout) is that little strip of old bricks, period.
Maybe building something really unusual (even inside that indy oval again) would do the trick?

For example: 8-shaped layout (like in Suzuka) but inside the oval track using the main pit-straight of the oval and then some fast turns inside with some hilly parts like in Turkey (that usually shows much ovrtaking) and 1 or 2 hairpins where the drivers would struggle (with the low DF setups).

[Ray]

This is something the US lacks!!! I drive a 2.0L 4 cylinder car here which produces 300BHP at the fly, the cars not special or expensive its just been tuned 0-62 in 5 seconds(FWD) and top speed is 160 mph, gearing issues lol. In the us you'd need a 5L V8 to even get close to that performance. This is what F1 is all about technology..............

That's not exactly true. You are more than likely comparing a FWD car to a bigger, heavier RWD car. Plus you forget that an engine that size makes almost no torque whatsoever compared to the bigger engine, AND you have to wind that thing WAY up to get anything out of it without forced induction of some kind. So compare apples to apples and not that 4 cylinder fanboy argument of 100HP per litre crap. Horsepower per litre doesn't mean jack if you make 170lbft of torque compared to my 450. I'll race you in a fat GTO any day and smoke any four cylinder whatever. Don't forget that a WORLDWIDE motorsports council voted that the LS7.R was the best engine in the world in 2007. To use the parlance on this site and most Europeans, it's an "archaic, old, outdated cam in block V8."

But, back on topic.

Ginsu you did quite piss me off a bit. You made the statements that Southerns are undereducated people that aren't smart enough to understand a sport such as F1. I bet you a hundred bucks they could rebuild a carb faster than most people. Just because you aren't a fan of a more highly technical sport doesn't mean you are dumb and don't get it. NASCAR is a highly technical sport as well. Just most other sports (F1 included) look down their noses at it cause they are "big lumbering V8s." Which is true, but they are bred race cars all the same. And, yes my public school education wasn't the best. But that doesn't mean I'm undereducated. Higher education and good study habits are your own responsibility, not the schools. I read about things I was interested in and became smarter on my own.

I think that F1 needs more passing. Period. There are nowhere near enough battles on track. Everyone loves the Dijon fight between Gilles and Rene, but somehow a few think that we have enough today as far as entertaining races. Bullshit. There were more passes in the last few laps just between those two than the whole British GP this past weekend. We need to figure out a way to remedy this. Fuel and tire strategy are important, but I want more. And F1 is supposed to be about the fans. For this single reason alone, I think that's why F1 isn't interesting to most Americans. Simple as that. We love door bangin, tire smoking, sideways fights for the lead. Plus, our drivers have personality. They are just as corporate as F1, but they have flair and personality in interviews. Not the F1 robots I'm used to seeing. If I hear maximise, look at the data, balance is off, or some other lame excuse rather than I ran a shitty race, I'm gonna go crazy. I'm sorry to say, F1 is boring in comparison, and that's why people here don't watch it.

And for God's sake, bring back slicks!!! A racecar is not a racecar without slicks.