Should RBR take the Ferrari engines back from STR?

[Scotracer]

Does 15HP really allow you to overcome more drag? I would think it would, but possibly a VERY small amount.

Scotracer-

Tuning 15hp in rFactor may not really show much simply because all of the other factors. Unless you hold an absolutely identical line for both compared laps, the times are not going to be very accurate.

And about the speedtrap evidence, I would point to the possibility of Renault running slightly less wing to overcome the power disadvantage. Especially having a driver such as Alonso, one would think that taking a bit of wing off may give him the opportunity to be as fast as everyone else, and use his skill in cornering to make up the grip disadvantage.

Well, if I was Renault, that is what I would be doing...

Chris

Well quite but I did a 15 lap stint on both setups and really didn't see any noticeable difference in what you can do with the cars; maybe a slight increase in top-end speed at the end of the straight allowing you slightly more wing, but on the whole, nothing to write home about.

[Miguel]

Scotracer, let me ask a couple of questios. What happens if the additional power is more like 40BHP? And also, try to add as much wing as possible without losing topspeed. Is the difference considerable? I mean, considerable in terms like 1-2 tenths a lap or so. I don't know how consistent you are, although I am not that consistent at all with a joystick (not the best input method) in a racing game for Linux (definitely not in rFactor or LFS league).

[Scotracer]

Scotracer, let me ask a couple of questios. What happens if the additional power is more like 40BHP? And also, try to add as much wing as possible without losing topspeed. Is the difference considerable? I mean, considerable in terms like 1-2 tenths a lap or so. I don't know how consistent you are, although I am not that consistent at all with a joystick (not the best input method) in a racing game for Linux (definitely not in rFactor or LFS league).

I will give it a go. To be honest, a 40BHP increase would only give about 5-6km/h more at the end of a straight so you couldn't run much more wing. It would probably equate to about 2 tenths - if that. I'll certainly try though.

Oh and as for UI, I use the Logitech G25 wheel -- Godly piece of kit.

[Miguel]

Oh and as for UI, I use the Logitech G25 wheel -- Godly piece of kit.

Ohhh... Ggggggg [-o< [-o< [-o< I'll confess gaming hardware like the G25, the Thrustmaster Cougar (I used to be a flight sim junkie) or the Saitek X-52 are the only things that sometimes make me miss Windows. Too tough to make them work 100% in Linux and after all only X-Plane 9 would deserve it.

[Conceptual]

Scotracer, let me ask a couple of questios. What happens if the additional power is more like 40BHP? And also, try to add as much wing as possible without losing topspeed. Is the difference considerable? I mean, considerable in terms like 1-2 tenths a lap or so. I don't know how consistent you are, although I am not that consistent at all with a joystick (not the best input method) in a racing game for Linux (definitely not in rFactor or LFS league).

I will give it a go. To be honest, a 40BHP increase would only give about 5-6km/h more at the end of a straight so you couldn't run much more wing. It would probably equate to about 2 tenths - if that. I'll certainly try though.

Oh and as for UI, I use the Logitech G25 wheel -- Godly piece of kit.

Sadly, I sold my G25 to a friend for $40 expecting to use it at his house, but I no longer am associated with him, so I do miss it pretty bad!

And BTW, I did get to shoehorn the Toyota 2005 V10 and gearbox into the Toyota Atlantic car. I also upgraded to the 2006 F1 Michelins.

Now I am seriously considering bring the brakes over too! The car is an animal. On the one speedway, I hit 410Km/h!!!

On topic:

I am still very interested on Scarbs' take on this issue.

Would you mind sharing with us Scarbs?

Chris

[scarbs]

As I recall at the time the Renault deal was on the table, Newey chose the Renault for its superior cooling and packaging. At the time power and drivability was believed to be on par through out the field.

I would say that since then Renault have taken the rules too literally in not developing the engine package. The team at Viry have been reduced and the package has fallen behind.

Right now the customer Ferrari engine is probably better than the Renault engine. Top end power is probably around 4% down on the best engines, this would come at a cost of around 0.4s per lap. Unfortunately the STR chassis is proabably not run at the same level as the RBR chassis, making accurate comparison diffucult. But I doubt the option to switch engines is a viable option, legally.

[Miguel]

Top end power is probably around 4% down on the best engines, this would come at a cost of around 0.4s per lap.

Thanks for the comment scarbs. However, that quote really left me wondering. Is ~30HP enough to gain four tenths? It really seems like a lot. I always thought that gaining time was "easier" from an aero efficiency point of view.

[Scotracer]

Sorry to go off-topic again but I've been messin' with rFactor again. The track was Hockenheim (current layout) and the car was the BMW Sauber F1.07. First I set a benchmark with the standard 2.4 V8 and managed a 1:13.39. I think tuned the engine along the lines of how the engine would be if they hadn't gone ahead with the freeze. Peak power was about 830BHP @ 21,000rpm. This gave a laptime of 1:11.98.

So, that's 1.41 seconds with about a 80BHP power difference.

Anyway, back on topic: Thanks for that info, Scarbs. I heard from elsewhere that the Ferrari engine had 753BHP currently...but I have read (apparently an official source) that at the end of 2006 they were getting 785BHP. How do those numbers seem to you?

[Conceptual]

Thank you for your reply Scarbs. I don't really see any legal obstacles that couldnt be overcome however. If RBR wanted the Ferrari engines for next year, I don't think that STR could really stop them.

But that is assuming that RBR couldnt simply switch to the Ferrari engine themselves while leaving the STR with Ferrari engines as well...

If Ferrari have the advantage that everyone seems to believe, they may become the Cosworth of this era, supplying over half of the grid.

Keeping the highest dyno scorers themselves, obviously!

Chris

[scarbs]

Thanks for the comment scarbs. However, that quote really left me wondering. Is ~30HP enough to gain four tenths? It really seems like a lot. I always thought that gaining time was "easier" from an aero efficiency point of view.

In terms of return on laptime per percentage improvement, engine power is one of the greatest returns. Tyres being the top and weight following next, I have some stats from Willem Toet on this, I will try to dig them out. While aero offers less of a return it is one area that is fully within the hands of the team to improve upon. Tyres are now a fixed spec (recal the level of testing before the single supply rule, that was to find the big gains), engine power is limited now by rules and previously by the suppliers ability to find large %age improvements. Weight is of course fixed at 600kg, which solely leaves Aero as the main factor, this is why we see such huge aero programmes.

[Belatti]

Tires are the same for everyone, but still, you can make a better use of them than your rivals. The same with weight: I´m sure (although have no source) cars may weight less than 500kg without ballast and driver, and then you have to distribute the rest. These two things are strongly related.

Regarding engines, I think the freeze goes as far as what the teams knows FIA can control. For example: lets say Ferrari changes the alloy spec for their pistons. How would the FIA know? Do they pass through spectometer at least some of the pieces? Or lets say the piston rings have 0.005mm shorter profile. Do they measure at least one ring?

Only in a "simple" piece like a ring there are 20 at least measurements you can control. In a piston there may be a hundred...

[megz]

Interesting to note was ITV's coverage of qualifying yesterday at Valencia with their female reporter hunting out Mark Webber after he went out of Q2. He was asked why the Toro Rosso was so far ahead of himself and Coulthard in more or less identical cars. His answer was that the Ferrari engine in the Toro Rosso was worth something like 0.400 sec a lap. He also said their set-ups were very similar between all four Red Bull cars. Interesting...

Another point I would like to make was the speed trap data during qualifying,
5 from 6 of the Ferrari cars were in the top 10 in the speed trap speeds. Hmmm it's interesting. The other cars at that time were Heidfeld's BMW a couple of Renault powered cars and I think a Toyota. I could be wrong.

I take that all back. Here is the data from Formula1.com

1 15 Sebastian Vettel 316.4
2 2 Felipe Massa 316.1
3 1 Kimi Räikkönen 316.0
4 14 Sebastien Bourdais 315.8
5 10 Mark Webber 313.6
6 3 Nick Heidfeld 313.3
7 9 David Coulthard 313.2
8 21 Giancarlo Fisichella 313.2
9 8 Kazuki Nakajima 312.5
10 20 Adrian Sutil 312.5

6 Ferrari's in the top ten, one Toyota, BMW and Two non works Renaults...

[guy_smiley]

Interesting to note was ITV's coverage of qualifying yesterday at Valencia with their female reporter hunting out Mark Webber after he went out of Q2. He was asked why the Toro Rosso was so far ahead of himself and Coulthard in more or less identical cars. His answer was that the Ferrari engine in the Toro Rosso was worth something like 0.400 sec a lap. He also said their set-ups were very similar between all four Red Bull cars. Interesting...

Speed Trap Data:

1 15 Sebastian Vettel 316.4
2 2 Felipe Massa 316.1
3 1 Kimi Räikkönen 316.0
4 14 Sebastien Bourdais 315.8
5 10 Mark Webber 313.6
6 3 Nick Heidfeld 313.3
7 9 David Coulthard 313.2
8 21 Giancarlo Fisichella 313.2
9 8 Kazuki Nakajima 312.5
10 20 Adrian Sutil 312.5

6 Ferrari's in the top ten, one Toyota, BMW and Two non works Renaults...

Mark also said that they are running less rear wing to compensate for the lack of power...That helps explain the Red Bull's top speed (in part at least)

[MattF1]

This is the full interview with Mark Webber from ITV.

Yeah, we've struggled for grip most of the weekend to be honest. Obviously we know there is a.., both Sebastians are obviously driving pretty well here plus they're setting the car a little bit differently, not massively but we know that they have a, um, stronger engine but probably not by the tune that they're ahead of us so, um, the engine's probably worth 4/10ths or so, but the rest is we need to do a better job. They've done a better job than us this weekend, in particular them, but not just them but a lot of other teams. You see where Renault are as well, and it's difficult day for them and so new venues and you know we had pace that we had for quite a few races ago, so it's getting frustrating.

[ESPImperium]

Rersonally, i feel that theres something else that the STR-Ferarri has over the RBR-Renault.

I feel that the STR3 has had rear diffuser development, diffrent rear suspension layout and a diffrent gearbox over the RBR-Renault.

But i do feel that the Renault engine is lacking somewhat, as well. I think there may be something to do thth the Mechachrome withdrawing from Motorsport may be some way to explaining the engine woes, but its not all to blame.

There is something that is wrong with the Renault Engines, but i just cannot explain it.