Alonso technical level

[marcush.]

c´m on boys ,do you honestly think an apprenticeship in carmechanics or even a degree in some engineering is of much use when it comes to the setup or optimisation
of a race car???
What you can apply of course is a generel attitude or general principles of workorganisation and methods,yes.but for sure being a mechanic will not even help if you try to be a racecar mechanic .
again ,it is no real surprise that there are a lot of very competent guys in leading positions on the technical side who actually have NO degree at all.To me ,this all these highly specialist boffins -please excuse if I stand on anyones feet here it this is of course a gross exagerating of reality - are simply also focused on their abilities and can only work on the food they get from the decisiontakers in the tech department and those have to rely on their gut feeling and confidence that the set of parameters they gave to the specialist is correct and complete as well.
If the driver had any value in engineering the car ....this would effectively mean he needed to be a lot more competent than the boffins at the pitwall and at home...as he´s possibly alone to persuade the rest...just forget about the idea of
the driver more than hinting in the direction of development as he´s the guy who actually drives the thing...his ability to describe the shortfalls of the current machinery and quantify or value the different areas of deficiency helps the engineer to take decisions to adapt the car as quick as possible instead of working in an area of no consequence just because the driver does not like a certain behaviour of the car.

[mep]

Some drivers see it as essential to study and learn about technology. Michael Schumacher finished his road car mechanics apprenticeship during his cart racing years. A guy like Hülkenberg has worked for parts of the year in all the different Williams factory departments to learn racing technology by heart. They would not do this unless it provided them with a better understanding of the engineering side. Drivers who put in this kind of extra effort are more complete as a result in their skill base.

Yes, that is what I would call basic skills.
Of course every driver in F1 should have them.

Just take a engine as example.
Everybody should know how it works.
However when you know how it works you still can't build one
When you managed to build one you still don't know how to develop it to get the maximal performance out of it.

There is a massive growth of knowledge needed from understanding, building and developing an engine.
The same goes for a total car.
Knowing all this stuff would be a very hard task for a 23 years old driver who spent his whole life with gaining driving skills.

by WhiteBlue
Ciro says that engineers know nothing about driving a car. This is why good drivers will be able to speed up the development process by reliable feed back on the performance advances of new parts and changes. I bet there are few drivers out there that can tell an engineer out of the box whether a car lacks rigidity or length of wheel base. I believe that the top guys with some years of experience can do this.

I think no driver is able to jump out of the car and tell you that the wheelbase has to be longer or shorter.
(We are talking about a few millimetres here.)
There are just to much things related to the wheelbase to make such a prediction.

[marcush.]

Some drivers see it as essential to study and learn about technology. Michael Schumacher finished his road car mechanics apprenticeship during his cart racing years. A guy like Hülkenberg has worked for parts of the year in all the different Williams factory departments to learn racing technology by heart. They would not do this unless it provided them with a better understanding of the engineering side. Drivers who put in this kind of extra effort are more complete as a result in their skill base.

Yes, that is what I would call basic skills.
Of course every driver in F1 should have them.

Just take a engine as example.
Everybody should know how it works.
But when you know how it works you still can't build one.
And when you managed to build one you still don't know how to develop it to get the maximal performance out of it.

There is a massive growth of knowledge needed from understanding, building and developing an engine.
The same goes for a total car.

by WhiteBlue
Ciro says that engineers know nothing about driving a car. This is why good drivers will be able to speed up the development process by reliable feed back on the performance advances of new parts and changes. I bet there are few drivers out there that can tell an engineer out of the box whether a car lacks rigidity or length of wheel base. I believe that the top guys with some years of experience can do this.

I think no driver is able to jump out of the car and tell you that the wheelbase has to be longer or shorter.
(We are talking about a few millimetres here.)
There are just to much things related to the wheelbase to make such a prediction.

to me the words-a little knowledge is dangerous -is the valid point here ,if you know a fraction of the whole story your decision or perception is restricted.So as you will not be able to really account for all the implications I assume its better to concentrate on giving the best possible feedback not an filtered interpretation in terms of -we need a stiffer front arb or the tyre pressure is too low...if the driver thinks that the car needs more wheelbase -you have to show him why he´s wrong or accept the statement

[Jersey Tom]

I agree , he wanted to leave ; being outdriven by a rookie would show that he isn't as good as he purports to be

at renault he was world champion thanks to
special tyres
special suspension
special electronics

has everyone forgotten that the renault launch control seemed to gain two places off the grid at every race?

Every team has "special" stuff they're trying to cheat / win with. Renault just got caught out. I wouldn't necessarily say Renault had 'special' tires though.

[marcush.]

but they got a very good reed on what Michelin tyres needed in terms of car layout.
This in effect bit them when they returned to Bridgestone. They did not fully understand just how big the difference in characteristics was and stopped way too conservative when adjusting the car layout.
this in effect shows also in the other teams when switching manufacturer or from grooved to slick tyre.
Some had issues with their basic layout before the switch to slicks and suddenly hit the sweet spot like Honda whereas others did maybe not account fully or correctly for the change in balance due to the fronts gaining proportionally more surface area than the rears....

[Ray]

c´m on boys ,do you honestly think an apprenticeship in carmechanics or even a degree in some engineering is of much use when it comes to the setup or optimisation
of a race car???

Absolutely. Unequivocally. If a driver is able to understand what changes they make to the design or setup of a car they can benefit massively from it. They driver and engineer can both be on the same sheet of music and they can communicate on a level that both can benefit from.

[Ray]

On the other had, LH boy was immediately put in the best car of the grid, with opportunity for copy the set-up of a 2xWCD that is known to be very good in setting up the car. In addition, and every lower category LH was competing, he was always installed in the best team, coz McL paid for it.

First off Lewis isn't a 'boy'. He's an adult human male, and to use such terms shows immaturity. Lewis got what he has because he earned it. Have you walked up to the top businessman in his field and flat out told the guy you were going to drive is cars at a very young age? Didn't think so. The man told him he was going to drive for them and has kept that promise and has shown that they made the right decision. He got his race seats because he delivered as a driver time and again, in all the series he's competed in. Mistakes are common when moving up a rung on the ladder, he made and still makes them in F1. He's human. I'm not a Hamilton fan by any stretch, but his gaffes in 2007 were vastly outweighed by his other performances. To say he's been handed everything he's gotten shows that you've not been paying attention to quite possibly the best driver of his generation very closely. One of the best drivers in the world has gotten where he is by having it given to him? Please. The man that Lewis has become is only due to hard work, massive amounts of talent, confidence, very good work ethic, and the teams of people behind him. Nothing more, nothing less.

[ISLAMATRON]

Very well put, but just to add slightly, it was at an awards banquet where Hamilton was picking up a prestigeous award as a top young driver where he met Ron Dennis, showing that he add already been achieving at a high level even before Dennis' or McLaren's involvement.

[audifan]

if I remember correctly michelin had to get permission from the FIA in order to vary the tyre design

[tarzoon]

Ok, now that many pundits, scientists, managers and engineers gave their opinion, can we have some feedback from a real racing driver?

[-o< [-o<

[vall]

On the other had, LH boy was immediately put in the best car of the grid, with opportunity for copy the set-up of a 2xWCD that is known to be very good in setting up the car. In addition, and every lower category LH was competing, he was always installed in the best team, coz McL paid for it.

.... very good work ethic, and the teams of people behind him. Nothing more, nothing less.

I really liked that

[Giblet]

This thread started out good, with real input about what contributes to Alonso's technical level.

Now we have almost two pages of

ALONSO!

HAMILTON!

ALONSO!

HAMILTON!

FORK!

SPOON!

Not caring who is better, I have not seen a single point about why we should think that Alonso is not a very strong technical driver, if not one of the strongest.

[ISLAMATRON]

I gave the single most important point(but you choose to ignore it), because he has not had any good results in the last 2 years. We can talk about development this and technical that but at the end of the day it should all come down to results. And it all can not be blamed on the car...

If we take how equal Alonso & Hamilton were in 2007 in the same car(regardless of those who say McLaren favored a rookie over the $40 million dollar man)... then take into account that Alonso outqualed Hamilton in 7 of the first 8 races of 2009(just before the Germany McLaren upgrade)... thus meaning the Renault was a faster car(a least over 1 lap), but yet Hamilton managed to finish ahead of Alonso 5 times and score more points than him(if you disregard that totally unprecedented Austrailia penalty, never before has a driven been DQ & penalized points for an off track infraction).

Simply looking at the results, Alonso is not as good a development/technical driver that he is made out to be, he's still probably very good... but it does not show up where it most needs to... on the track.

And how important is the development/technical aspect of being a F1 driver? Wurz and PDLR are considered very good but what has that brought them? Not much because while they may be consistant, they are also consistantly slow.

Morpheus to Neo... What are you waiting for? You're faster than this. Don't think you are, know you are. Come on. Stop trying to hit me and hit me.

Alonso might need to stop thinking about going faster and just do it.

[Fil]

Simply looking..

and there-in lies the problem. it is very rare, and unlikely in this situation, for a simple look to be a reliable or correct view.

no matter how good your polishing skills are, sometimes you just can't polish a turd (or a Renault!).


none of us, unless we have worked directly with the F1 drivers, can give an honest or correct account of their technical level or skills. we can only provide an uneducated and unreliable personal guess. you are deluding yourselves to attempt to pretend it is anything more than that.

this is a pointless topic when personalised about specific drivers.

why not just discuss whether a technically-minded driver is important/vital for a championship-winning car..

[ringo]

A turd can be polished!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBj6PonX14A[/youtube]