Alonso technical level

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ISLAMATRON
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Alonso technical level

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Giblet wrote:
TRICKLE69 wrote:
Ferrari dropped the ball on Felipe more than once. His loss of the championship was Ferrari's fault more than his. Ferrari are acutely aware of this fact.

He fulfilled his part of the bargain. Win every chance you get. Ferrari let him down, it was not because he wasn't good enough.
Please correct me if I am wrong but if recall correctly Massa tossed the car off a couple of times in the beginning of the year as well, so I think that the fault is equal and the Ferrari mistakes came more towards the end of the year when points lost are more noticed. I think Massa should stay at Ferrari long term and is a great driver who will DEFINITELY embarrass Alonso. I think it will be comparable to the Lewis/Alonso battles.
Alonso is considered by most engineers the best at setting up the car and quantifying new parts performance.

I think Massa is a great driver, and gets better every year, but Alonso's technical merit will be the deciding factor, and will give him an edge in understanding the car.

The key difference between them:

Alonso believes he is the best (right or not doesn't matter he believes it), and the fact he beat Schumi to the WDC 2x and obliterated his teammates (until The Boss) and won in a sub standard car has helped cement his belief.

Massa knows he is not the best, as Schumi was his teammate.
If Alonso is so good technically than why has the Renault been so bad the last 2 years? To the point where they had to fix the race to get any type of results. Said it before and I will continue to say it... The stay puff Michilin man won those 2 WDC's not Fernando Alonso.

And Alonso knows he is NOT the best, that is why He left McLaren, and sacrificed 2 years off his career... It took him less time to realize it than Prost but they both realized that they would never beat their teammate in equal machinery so they must go elsewhere and also demand #1 status... and that is the only way Alonso will be at the top again... but even at the top, he will still not be the best.

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: What will Massa do after 2010?

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ISLAMATRON wrote:And Alonso knows he is NOT the best, that is why He left McLaren, and sacrificed 2 years off his career... It took him less time to realize it than Prost but they both realized that they would never beat their teammate in equal machinery so they must go elsewhere and also demand #1 status...
The thing about 2007 that doesn't sit well with me regarding Alonso is that he lost the desire to win in favour of petty politics. If he'd kept his head down, ignored that Hamilton was doing better at certain races and waited for the inevitable mistakes and when he'd end up doing better then he could have steamed in like Raikkonen and snatched the championship. He didn't. He just wasn't interested.

Alonso even went so far as to say Raikkonen was the best driver that season, not because he was, but in order to just get back at Hamilton, which I found a bit bizarre. It was as if he didn't actually see himself as a title contender in 2007, even though he finished joint second, and wanted to forget the whole thing. Being in a perfect number 1 situation is seemingly more important to him than winning the championship itself.

It's certainly been a large blot on his copybook.

vall
vall
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Re: What will Massa do after 2010?

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segedunum wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:And Alonso knows he is NOT the best, that is why He left McLaren, and sacrificed 2 years off his career... It took him less time to realize it than Prost but they both realized that they would never beat their teammate in equal machinery so they must go elsewhere and also demand #1 status...
The thing about 2007 that doesn't sit well with me regarding Alonso is that he lost the desire to win in favour of petty politics. If he'd kept his head down, ignored that Hamilton was doing better at certain races and waited for the inevitable mistakes and when he'd end up doing better then he could have steamed in like Raikkonen and snatched the championship. He didn't. He just wasn't interested.
Alonso's problems with McL were already evident at the first 2 races in 2007.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Alonso technical level

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These posts were splitted from the thread "What will Massa do after 2010".
Ciro

vall
vall
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Re: Alonso technical level

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ISLAMATRON wrote: If Alonso is so good technically than why has the Renault been so bad the last 2 years? To the point where they had to fix the race to get any type of results. Said it before and I will continue to say it... The stay puff Michilin man won those 2 WDC's not Fernando Alonso.

And Alonso knows he is NOT the best, that is why He left McLaren, and sacrificed 2 years off his career... It took him less time to realize it than Prost but they both realized that they would never beat their teammate in equal machinery so they must go elsewhere and also demand #1 status... and that is the only way Alonso will be at the top again... but even at the top, he will still not be the best.
I think he did more than well with the mediocre car he had. Renault improved a lot at the end of 2008, and after Spa Alonso got more point that anybody else. 2009 the DDD messed up things a lot and Renault stopped the development in the summer. None of the Alonso's 2 team-mates were anywhere close to the points, while Alonso scored on a regular basis.

Jersey Tom
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Re: Alonso technical level

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ISLAMATRON wrote:If Alonso is so good technically than why has the Renault been so bad the last 2 years? To the point where they had to fix the race to get any type of results. Said it before and I will continue to say it... The stay puff Michilin man won those 2 WDC's not Fernando Alonso.
You're talking about two separate items and confusing them as one.

1. Alonso's ability to clearly and effectively communicate to the engineers.
2. The engineers' ability to take this information and make the most of it, and develop a winning car.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

marcush.
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Re: Alonso technical level

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to say anyone of todays cars is engineered or setup by a driver is simply not realas it was not real in earlier days of motorsport.
With todays cars car setup is largely driven by the need to keep the car in a favourable area of the aeromap to stand any chance to get useful laptimes.

On the other hand to say a drivers perception could quantify the usefulness of new developments is really completely contradicting itself.quantifying is objective measuring ,repeatable.Driving a racecar is nothing like repeatable so maybe alonso might be very good at stating was is suiting him and what is not.this is a vast difference to being objective.

But then again:it is not enough to tailor the car to the needs of the driver but you need to maximise the performance of the whole package at the same time.It seems that
people do not appreciate that these are two interconnected but not the same areas of development.It has to do with the level of unconfort in terms of instability or speed of change in response of the machine wich may affwct one drivers confidence or ability to drive to the limit or not.
I do not think or believe that it is necessary or helpful to be an engineer to be able to give good and useful feedback as a driver ,but the same goes for the engineer does not need to drive a racing car for himself.It is like trainer or couch to a tennisplayer ,boxer golfplayer:you have to know how to get the most out of the guy but being able to do the job yourself? no.Maybe thinking you´d be able to do it better than him ?as soon as you start to think along those lines you are done.

Giblet
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Re: Alonso technical level

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I don't want to have to type out the article from F1 racing. I have no idea why he is considered so good, but it's not me that thinks that.

How do you explain how his teammates (renault) could barely get to Q3, let alone Q2, but Alonso routinely out performed them. Starting at Minardi, he has usually wrung the car to a place it was never considered to be.

If you insist, I can get you the quotes from my magazine pile from the engineers who have worked with him.

You can think what you want, but I go by what the F1 fraternity says for the most part.

Sorry pal, you won't be convincing me or the rest of F1 that Alonso sucks, cuz h obviously doesn't. The fact that he was on his puff and stuff michelins, and then they took the mass damper away. He worked so well the team to claw back what was lost.

I know you don't like Alonso. I never liked Schumi, but I am not so ignorant that I can not recognize his talent from a mile away.

Prost knew Senna was a better driver with Honda in his pocket from day 1, but he was too much of a selfless team player to give up on Mclaren. This is from a recent interview as well, you want the quote?

I don't think Alonso is the best, I have no idea who is. I am not privy to all the telemetry and data that the teams have, that actually quantify who is a better a driver.

We get so speculate like idiots, but saying Alonso is not good is just silly.

I still think Alonso thinks he is the best, considering he thought he was disadvantaged and still scored even points with an entrenched and 'favored' Hamilton.

From the F1 Racing article -

"What makes Alonso great and what enthuses his millions of fans is the same willpower and stubbornness that make him so elusive out of the car. It's not his outright speed that gives him the edge - Kimi Raikkonen or Jarno Trulli are probably faster over one lap - but Alonso can deliver his speed over a race distance, ragardless of what the tyres, weather, or car migyht throw at him. If he were a concert pianist, he'd continue delivering a poerfect performance even after having his stool kicked away and his usic fodler up. "Over 60 laps, he's an animal," says Mike Gascoyne with characteristic brevity. "He's a born winner."

and

"Alonso's ability to guide a team's development comes from his capacity to minimise human error when working with the engineers. A 'yes' when he tests a new part is always a reliable 'yes' - and that helps focus a teams development on the areas that bring real benefits, rather than dispersing their energy. Equally; his approval is decisive; it doesn't need further evaluation testing or back-to-back running to make sure."

So this sort of info, which is pretty much all I read about him, is what I base my opinions on.

Articles and what he has done in the car have cemented my opinion.

and one more for you, so you understand I am not biased :)

"But that all-out competitiveness is also the reason why, at the moment, he is still the sports most least complete driver rather than it's most complete. When asked what his greatest character flaw is, Alonso tries to laugh it off by saying: "There are too many!" But the he admits: "I get angry when I lose"n The challenge of competition sparks his competitive brilliance, but also leaves him psychologically exposed when he falls short of the mark."
Last edited by Giblet on 04 Dec 2009, 01:34, edited 1 time in total.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Actually, I think there is a lot of uncertainities when you setup a car. I do not want to seem condescendent, so I apologize in advance if the following seems to be a patronizing comment.

I always try hard to assume eeeeverybody here knows as much as everybody, that I am the less knowledgeable in this site and that everybody races at least once a month in a racetrack (if you don't, you should try: it's better than almost anything!).

To begin with (based on extensive karting experience), the driver must learn to drive, no matter how stupid this phrase seems.

What I mean is that a "fast" setup is hard to drive if you're a beginner: you must start with a setup that allows the car to be forgiving with your mistakes. Before "graduating" to a fast setup, you need quite some "seat experience". So, my advice would be: hit the same racing line, lap after lap, with an easy setup, before trying to improve the car.

I haven't driven a simulator for ages, I'm more into the real thing, but perhaps some of the "simulating guys" around can tell you more about the previous paragraph. I would add, in advance to their comments, that some drivers tell me that the kart simulator standard setups are terrible (because they are trying the "fast setup" and they spin out of control).

I just answer: "man, take some time to learn the basics before you start 'arguing' with the simulator developers about setups: when you can use the fast setup and the AI is at 100% AND you can drive 100 laps without spinning, come back and tell me about your lap times: you will be surprised".

Now, suppose you have already enough experience to "hold the line" in a car with a fast setup. What happens next?

One of the most forgotten aspects of "seting-up" a car is the driver himself: you need (I repeat as emphatically as I can: you need) to be consistent. What good is to make a setup change if you take a different racing line? You'll never know if the lap time went down because of your driving or because of the change in setup.

So, being extremely consistent is a virtue. It's the most necessary virtue: when setting up a car you are not trying to break other people's times, you want to learn about the car.

Now, when you move from karts to fast cars, the ones with enough power to spin the wheels when exiting a curve, some people feel terrified. There is a real danger of killing yourself if you go for the record. All the professional drivers I've know are crazy as a goat in spring time using LSD. Being consistent in that frame of mind is very hard. To be as cool as coolness is.

Most of the rational persons, me included, have a moment of doubt when taking the entrance of a fast curve at 200 plus kph. Professionals are totally crazy: they do not hesitate for a moment. That's the reason why I am an instructor for KIDS. I like racing, but I love life more... if you get my drift. So, another virtue is to be brave to the point of stupidity.

That's why I get upset sometimes when I hear comments about the relative value of the people in the grid of Formula One. I'd say 99 out of 100 drivers have the consistency, the seat time and the valor you need to drive a "medium" professional race car. Perhaps 999 out of 1000 people in a racing driver course couldn't drive a powerful car to the limit.

So, to argue about the relative "driving skill" of Räikönnen, Alonso or even Yuji Ide, people that have skills and seat time that only 1 in a million drivers have, is borderly moronic, from my very particular point of view. Most of the time the difference is in the car. I'd say that F1 is a fair of parts, a competition of money and resources: you need money to go fast. Blaming the driver for a particularly bad year is a "naiveté of the first degree".

You all saw Jenson Button winning the WDC this year, didn't you? Is he better than, I don't know, Kobayashi? I'd answer: "well, I'm not sure: better for what?".

So, blaming Alonso for being some tenths of a second (that's like 1 part in 1.000 in a 1:30 lap, for the love of Pete!) slower in a particular car is kind of stupid (sorry, guys, nothing personal).

Finally, the engineers, no matter how much telemetry they have, know dick about the car behaviour. Yes, you keep your setup logs. You know the weather, the temperature, the camber, whatever. However, you need a more important thing: not the brain, but the soul of the driver. I really don't know how a human being does it, but inspiration is very important. Somehow a person, a very good driver, is able to "integrate" everything and give you clues about the car behaviour that a computer cannot give you.

Even then, if you are professionals, as I assume you're totally crazy, as I assume that your mind and your worries go beyond this world, I won't believe even professional drivers criticisms.

In my experience, professionals don't criticize, they try to learn from the competition. Even the worst driver in the grid have some particular quality and you can learn things from the guy in the last spot, even if you're in the first place. Nobody is so bad that is not useful for something.

Once you stop learning from others, you could stop racing that very same day. Now, you try to tell me you don't have anything to learn from Alonso (or even Ide?).

Well, I would like to continue, but that's enough, this post is very long and nobody will read it. Anyway, please, try to look intelligent: criticizing Formula One drivers because of their skills is a little... noobie. And you all race, don't you?

However, please, by all means, go on. Keep critizicing Kimi Räikönnen or Fernando Alonso to your heart contempt. I won't believe your points, anyway, unless you are a professional driver in disguise and then, as I said, I will believe your mad as goats on LSD. ;)
Ciro

Giblet
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Re: Alonso technical level

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I currently don't have the resources to real race, but this is close enough. It's hard enough that you feel a sense of accomplishment from even mild success.

In iRacing I was toddling the Spec Racer Ford around Lime Rock. Every corner, the car seemed to do exactly what was opposite of what you think. It was a plow that didn't like to turn in.

I would brake early and start the rear rotating with a quick turn in, but as soon as I was near the apex, I hit the gas, and PUSH to the outside.

I forced myself to get as quick as possible on the standard setup, but got frustrated and asked for some help. An experienced racer had me soften the front anti roll bar, so it was a little softer than the rear, and I was immediately able to attack and gained over 2 secs a lap, at Lime Rock, that is near infinite.

Simulators used to be OK, but as I keep saying, every racer needs to try iRacing to understand it is a new level of sim. If you still think that rFactor is the cats ass of sims, it just aint :)
Last edited by Giblet on 04 Dec 2009, 01:47, edited 1 time in total.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Yeah, I can dig it. Thanks, Giblet for the support (I think).
Ciro

Giblet
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Re: Alonso technical level

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no prob, considering the post was started to talk about why Alonso is not a good technical driver from a snippet from one of my posts elsewhere, and we seem to be the only ones talking about the technical side that was presented in the topic.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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ringo
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Not to divert the thread but i think Prost was not afraid of Senna, just couldn't deal with the direct competition; having to look over his shoulder all the time.
I rate him higher than Senna in some respects (not all). We have to recognize the guy has 4 WDC. :P

About Alonso now, hmmm, i think his technical level is pretty much on the highest level and he is pretty much like Prost in the way how he is calm and collected. One thing though is that the 2005 and 2006 car and the michelins, as Islams says, may have made him seem more complete than he really is.
For Sure!!

segedunum
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Re: Alonso technical level

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I was impressed with Alonso in 2006 and how he handled the pressure, but in terms of how he won it.....you have to say that the Michelins were the better tyre. As for 2005 he was the recipient of some McLaren engine and chassis failures as well as their 'strange' decisions, as Pat Symonds put it. Alonso's rationale for moving to McLaren in late 2005 was when he told Ron Dennis "Yer, but you had the fastest car".

Giblet
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Re: Alonso technical level

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Prost wasn't afraid of Senna, but he has acknowledged in a recent interview that he knew he could not beat Senna with Honda behind him in Mclaren. His biggest flaw, like he says Ron Dennis would likely agree, was he put the team before himself.

He was asked by the team who he would like them to sign, Piquet, or that Senna kid. He knew saying Piquet would likely deliver him another title, but he nodded Senna as that what was best for the team.

Reminds me of me. Putting others first before myself, naturally and often to my own detriment. Ever present empathy is not always a good thing.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute