2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[chrisc90]

If the current car was setting the pace (or if there was no MV - see the alternative championship thread…), would this car be ‘hated’, or would it just be considered to be another ‘diva’???

What motivation would lead a mod to make this comment?

Seems reasonable to me. The W13/14 were both publicly criticised by the team and fans aswell.

If the car was getting wins and podiums it would be plain fact that the comments would be different

[TFSA]

What motivation would lead a mod to make this comment?

Participating in the discussion?

Mods aren't just here to hand out bans and clean the forum. They love discussing F1 as well.

[ValeVida46]

If the current car was setting the pace (or if there was no MV - see the alternative championship thread…), would this car be ‘hated’, or would it just be considered to be another ‘diva’???

What motivation would lead a mod to make this comment?

Seems reasonable to me. The W13/14 were both publicly criticised by the team and fans aswell.

If the car was getting wins and podiums it would be plain fact that the comments would be different

Creating a strawman illusion aka "if the current car was setting the pace"(clue: it's not) to comments he's made about previous cars aka 'or would it be considered another "diva" '(clue: it was)
It's not even discreet as to the barbed nature of the post.

In terms of constructive discourse, the diametrically opposed post on the RB thread would get shot down in minutes wouldn't it? So how is it reasonable for a mod to be saying this?

@TFSA
My reply covers that.

[Mosin123]

LH can insist on copying RBR or McLaren etc, but the car may end up not suiting his driving style.

What is his driving style because mercedes have been multiple cars with differing strengths over the past decade... and he has largely managed to get the most out of all of them.

Even this current thing, which he openly hates.

Ultimately, if you have something that can win. Then its up to you...nobody wants something that is comfortable and slow. 17 years of doing this thing, I think he has proven he knows what to do with a winning package

If the current car was setting the pace (or if there was no MV - see the alternative championship thread…), would this car be ‘hated’, or would it just be considered to be another ‘diva’???

I would guess it depends on how competitive it has been at the races and the feed back from the drivers, Merc has not looked good all year, honestly shocked LH is 3rd and in with a ( small ) chance of 2nd in what most agree has mainly been the 4th best car over the season so far.

Take LH out of that Merc, and you have GR fighting for 6th, 7th, and 8th could even end up 9th given how well McLaren are performing and Oscar of late... that doesnt paint a pretty picture at all, for a team expected by most, including them selfs, to be challanging for podiums at every race.

[j_ste]

LH can insist on copying RBR or McLaren etc, but the car may end up not suiting his driving style.

What is his driving style because mercedes have been multiple cars with differing strengths over the past decade... and he has largely managed to get the most out of all of them.

Even this current thing, which he openly hates.

Ultimately, if you have something that can win. Then its up to you...nobody wants something that is comfortable and slow. 17 years of doing this thing, I think he has proven he knows what to do with a winning package

If the current car was setting the pace (or if there was no MV - see the alternative championship thread…), would this car be ‘hated’, or would it just be considered to be another ‘diva’???

considering how far off his has been to George at times this season...yes, I assume that he probably wouldnt like it even if he were getting wins.

Its like Bayern firing managers even when they win the league. The winning isnt the judgement, the process and standard of performance relative to expectation, is.

Mercedes would look at the data. See that the track performance isnt meeting the sim performance and know something was going wrong.

[Spoutnik]

What is his driving style because mercedes have been multiple cars with differing strengths over the past decade... and he has largely managed to get the most out of all of them.

Even this current thing, which he openly hates.

Ultimately, if you have something that can win. Then its up to you...nobody wants something that is comfortable and slow. 17 years of doing this thing, I think he has proven he knows what to do with a winning package

If the current car was setting the pace (or if there was no MV - see the alternative championship thread…), would this car be ‘hated’, or would it just be considered to be another ‘diva’???

I would guess it depends on how competitive it has been at the races and the feed back from the drivers, Merc has not looked good all year, honestly shocked LH is 3rd and in with a ( small ) chance of 2nd in what most agree has mainly been the 4th best car over the season so far.

Take LH out of that Merc, and you have GR fighting for 6th, 7th, and 8th could even end up 9th given how well McLaren are performing and Oscar of late... that doesnt paint a pretty picture at all, for a team expected by most, including them selfs, to be challanging for podiums at every race.

Totally agree with you. Hamilton has no right to be in 3rd spot really... and even less fighting for 2nd.
I think he's the 2nd best driver behind Max this year on overall performance.
Keep in mind that even with his DNF in Qatar Hamilton is more than 60 pts ahead of Russell (!!!) in the standings. And despite his flaws, we know that Russell isn't Stroll or Perez level

I think it's real amazing to put together this kind of season, with this kind of consistency at his age and after a really disappointing 2022

[Cs98]

Totally agree with you. Hamilton has no right to be in 3rd spot really... and even less fighting for 2nd.
I think he's the 2nd best driver behind Max this year on overall performance.
Keep in mind that even with his DNF in Qatar Hamilton is more than 60 pts ahead of Russell (!!!) in the standings. And despite his flaws, we know that Russell isn't Stroll or Perez level

I think it's real amazing to put together this kind of season, with this kind of consistency at his age and after a really disappointing 2022

He has every right, the Merc has been on average the second best car this season. AMR was better early, but dropped off hard around Spain. McLaren is better now, but were awful early. Ferrari has sort of been there or thereabouts on raw pace with Merc, but have generally suffered in race pace due to their deg issues, and generally worse reliability. Merc is the consistent factor in that 2nd place battle. Still driving really well to beat George by that margin, avoiding the mistakes George has been making in races, but 3rd in the WDC is absolutely in that car.

[denyall]

Where would the likes of AMR and MCL be without a RB to copy? Almost all (if not all) the teams have made changes inspired by the Red Bull.

Without Max, I wonder if Merc would still have committed to replacing zero pod, I think they wouldn't have.

[ali623]

What is his driving style because mercedes have been multiple cars with differing strengths over the past decade... and he has largely managed to get the most out of all of them.

Even this current thing, which he openly hates.

Ultimately, if you have something that can win. Then its up to you...nobody wants something that is comfortable and slow. 17 years of doing this thing, I think he has proven he knows what to do with a winning package

If the current car was setting the pace (or if there was no MV - see the alternative championship thread…), would this car be ‘hated’, or would it just be considered to be another ‘diva’???

I would guess it depends on how competitive it has been at the races and the feed back from the drivers, Merc has not looked good all year, honestly shocked LH is 3rd and in with a ( small ) chance of 2nd in what most agree has mainly been the 4th best car over the season so far.

Take LH out of that Merc, and you have GR fighting for 6th, 7th, and 8th could even end up 9th given how well McLaren are performing and Oscar of late... that doesnt paint a pretty picture at all, for a team expected by most, including them selfs, to be challanging for podiums at every race.

Why are you shocked? AM have fallen off a cliff performance-wise and Ferrari have had shocking race pace for most of the season. The competition behind RB hasn't exactly been stellar.

Russell dropped at least 30pts through his silly 'rookie error' crashes in Canada and Singapore. He should really be on 160pts+ right now at least - ahead of both Ferrari's and well on his way to overhaul Alonso. Even that is with his engine failure in Australia.

[AR3-GP]

If the current car was setting the pace (or if there was no MV - see the alternative championship thread…), would this car be ‘hated’, or would it just be considered to be another ‘diva’???

I would guess it depends on how competitive it has been at the races and the feed back from the drivers, Merc has not looked good all year, honestly shocked LH is 3rd and in with a ( small ) chance of 2nd in what most agree has mainly been the 4th best car over the season so far.

Take LH out of that Merc, and you have GR fighting for 6th, 7th, and 8th could even end up 9th given how well McLaren are performing and Oscar of late... that doesnt paint a pretty picture at all, for a team expected by most, including them selfs, to be challanging for podiums at every race.

Totally agree with you. Hamilton has no right to be in 3rd spot really... and even less fighting for 2nd.
I think he's the 2nd best driver behind Max this year on overall performance.
Keep in mind that even with his DNF in Qatar Hamilton is more than 60 pts ahead of Russell (!!!) in the standings. And despite his flaws, we know that Russell isn't Stroll or Perez level

I think it's real amazing to put together this kind of season, with this kind of consistency at his age and after a really disappointing 2022

I saw a median race pace analysis done for the season which places Mercedes in second place on the season based on race pace. Aston in 4th. So Hamilton is right where he should be imo. Aston came and went. Mclaren were nowhere then came. As a result, Merc on average maintained a higher level more consistently even if they were never outright fastest Mercedes powered car all year. Russell is not doing a good job with the car he has. Alonso is the one who stands out considering he has the median 4th fastest car (they have been slower than Merc since Barcelona more or less), but is 4th in the championship.

[Spoutnik]

Totally agree with you. Hamilton has no right to be in 3rd spot really... and even less fighting for 2nd.
I think he's the 2nd best driver behind Max this year on overall performance.
Keep in mind that even with his DNF in Qatar Hamilton is more than 60 pts ahead of Russell (!!!) in the standings. And despite his flaws, we know that Russell isn't Stroll or Perez level

I think it's real amazing to put together this kind of season, with this kind of consistency at his age and after a really disappointing 2022

He has every right, the Merc has been on average the second best car this season. AMR was better early, but dropped off hard around Spain. McLaren is better now, but were awful early. Ferrari has sort of been there or thereabouts on raw pace with Merc, but have generally suffered in race pace due to their deg issues, and generally worse reliability. Merc is the consistent factor in that 2nd place battle. Still driving really well to beat George by that margin, avoiding the mistakes George has been making in races, but 3rd in the WDC is absolutely in that car.

I think Ferrari has been faster all season overall. They worse "low" (Spain, Miami & Zandvoorst) but keep in mind that both driver did big mistakes at some point and they had more issue with reliability than both Merc : Leclerc DNF in 3rd at Barhain, Leclerc DNF in Australia, Sainz penalty put him out of the point while he was confortably running at 4th in Australia, Leclerc had to take an engine penalty in Saudia Arabia, in Monaco Sainz mistakes made him lost and easy 4th place behind a slowly running Ocon in 3rd. In Spain, Leclerc did his worst race since he's a Ferrari driver imo. In Canada, both Ferrari were probably 2nd fastest when you look at their pace in clear air, but the team dropped the ball with both cars out in Q2. In Austria, Sainz penalties made him lost a well earned 4th place (keep in mind Leclerc finished 2nd). Silverstone is a classic Ferrari strategic masterclass, but they were probably 5th & 6th that weekend. In Belgium since DNF after a first lap incident while Leclerc finished 3rd confortably. Zandvoorst was another nightmare for Leclerc after damaging the car in the first lap. Singapore, Leclerc managed a PU issue which probably prevented him to join the fight for the win. And in Qatar Sainz couldn't even start.
I will not do the mathematics but you get it. For Merc I can only say Hamilton had to DNF in Qatar and Russell made 2 rookies mistakes (Canada & Singapore) and that's it really (I can also add some unfortunate qualy).

Also Ferrari had more pole, they are the only one who beat RB. And on some week end they were clear cut 2nd fast (Monza, Spa, Austria, even Canada when you look at there average race pace, & ofc Singapore). The only race were Merc was clear cut 2nd faster was Spain.

To that, I will add two things i) if your point is right why is Russell so far off ? +60pts when you battle in the midfield is huge ii) Hamilton did a pretty solid job, exactly because he has managed to beat/or at least split each cars when they were at their peak performance this year (so Alonso, then the Ferrari, and even at some point the McL but now ther're too fast) : i.e he managed to keep Alonso behind in Australia, which was pretty unexpected, and Stroll behind in Barhain (I know it's funny know but Stroll was fast at the beginning of the year, and Russell finished behind him this race), same for Baku where Stroll finished ahead of Russell but behind Hamilton. When Ferrari became much much faster Hamilton kept them behind in Canada, while Russell hit the wall (he DNF but he would've finished behind them due to his mistake due to their amazing pace that race). Same for Silverstone where Hamilton end up ahead of Piastri (lucky we have to say). In Hungary, Russell overtook both Ferrari at the last minute, but ended up behind Piastri, while Hamilton was splitting both McLaren.
I will not even mention Singapore... In Japan, again Hamilton splitted both Ferrari while Russell finished behind both.

If we do a counterfactual (I do not change the others teams points for sake of simplicity, but you will get my point) were Hamilton had scored as many points as Russell this will be the WCC standings :
- Ferrari : 298 pts
- Mercedes : 264 pts
- Aston Martin : 230 pts
- McLaren : 219 pts

It's not the same year for Merc without Hamilton in that car

[Cs98]

I think Ferrari has been faster all season overall. They worse "low" (Spain, Miami & Zandvoorst) but keep in mind that both driver did big mistakes at some point and they had more issue with reliability than both Merc : Leclerc DNF in 3rd at Barhain, Leclerc DNF in Australia, Sainz penalty put him out of the point while he was confortably running at 4th in Australia, Leclerc had to take an engine penalty in Saudia Arabia, in Monaco Sainz mistakes made him lost and easy 4th place behind a slowly running Ocon in 3rd. In Spain, Leclerc did his worst race since he's a Ferrari driver imo. In Canada, both Ferrari were probably 2nd fastest when you look at their pace in clear air, but the team dropped the ball with both cars out in Q2. In Austria, Sainz penalties made him lost a well earned 4th place (keep in mind Leclerc finished 2nd). Silverstone is a classic Ferrari strategic masterclass, but they were probably 5th & 6th that weekend. In Belgium since DNF after a first lap incident while Leclerc finished 3rd confortably. Zandvoorst was another nightmare for Leclerc after damaging the car in the first lap. Singapore, Leclerc managed a PU issue which probably prevented him to join the fight for the win. And in Qatar Sainz couldn't even start.
I will not do the mathematics but you get it. For Merc I can only say Hamilton had to DNF in Qatar and Russell made 2 rookies mistakes (Canada & Singapore) and that's it really (I can also add some unfortunate qualy).

Also Ferrari had more pole, they are the only one who beat RB. And on some week end they were clear cut 2nd fast (Monza, Spa, Austria, even Canada when you look at there average race pace, & ofc Singapore). The only race were Merc was clear cut 2nd faster was Spain.

To that, I will add two things i) if your point is right why is Russell so far off ? +60pts when you battle in the midfield is huge ii) Hamilton did a pretty solid job, exactly because he has managed to beat/or at least split each cars when they were at their peak performance this year (so Alonso, then the Ferrari, and even at some point the McL but now ther're too fast) : i.e he managed to keep Alonso behind in Australia, which was pretty unexpected, and Stroll behind in Barhain (I know it's funny know but Stroll was fast at the beginning of the year, and Russell finished behind him this race), same for Baku where Stroll finished ahead of Russell but behind Hamilton. When Ferrari became much much faster Hamilton kept them behind in Canada, while Russell hit the wall (he DNF but he would've finished behind them due to his mistake due to their amazing pace that race). Same for Silverstone where Hamilton end up ahead of Piastri (lucky we have to say). In Hungary, Russell overtook both Ferrari at the last minute, but ended up behind Piastri, while Hamilton was splitting both McLaren.
I will not even mention Singapore... In Japan, again Hamilton splitted both Ferrari while Russell finished behind both.

If we do a counterfactual (I do not change the others teams points for sake of simplicity, but you will get my point) were Hamilton had scored as many points as Russell this will be the WCC standings :
- Ferrari : 298 pts
- Mercedes : 264 pts
- Aston Martin : 230 pts
- McLaren : 219 pts

It's not the same year for Merc without Hamilton in that car

If we do a counterfactual (I do not change the others teams points for sake of simplicity, but you will get my point) were Hamilton had scored as many points as Russell this will be the WCC standings :

Let us do this excercise for real instead of adjusting one team and not the other.

So for Russell, in Australia he was on for P2, Canada top 4, Zandvoort top 8 minimum, Singapore top 3. That's like 50 points worth of retirements at least. You look at a guy like Leclerc who has also had 4 retirements, he has lost maybe 20-30 points from those based on pace and position. Taking mistakes and unreliability out of the equation would place Russell ahead of both Ferraris. The Merc is just better in the races, the Ferrari has too much deg. So I'm not shocked Lewis is P3, that is where he ought to be based on the pace of the car. Russell's costly mistakes are what have put him and the team in a position where it looks kinda close with Ferrari.

[Spoutnik]

I think Ferrari has been faster all season overall. They worse "low" (Spain, Miami & Zandvoorst) but keep in mind that both driver did big mistakes at some point and they had more issue with reliability than both Merc : Leclerc DNF in 3rd at Barhain, Leclerc DNF in Australia, Sainz penalty put him out of the point while he was confortably running at 4th in Australia, Leclerc had to take an engine penalty in Saudia Arabia, in Monaco Sainz mistakes made him lost and easy 4th place behind a slowly running Ocon in 3rd. In Spain, Leclerc did his worst race since he's a Ferrari driver imo. In Canada, both Ferrari were probably 2nd fastest when you look at their pace in clear air, but the team dropped the ball with both cars out in Q2. In Austria, Sainz penalties made him lost a well earned 4th place (keep in mind Leclerc finished 2nd). Silverstone is a classic Ferrari strategic masterclass, but they were probably 5th & 6th that weekend. In Belgium since DNF after a first lap incident while Leclerc finished 3rd confortably. Zandvoorst was another nightmare for Leclerc after damaging the car in the first lap. Singapore, Leclerc managed a PU issue which probably prevented him to join the fight for the win. And in Qatar Sainz couldn't even start.
I will not do the mathematics but you get it. For Merc I can only say Hamilton had to DNF in Qatar and Russell made 2 rookies mistakes (Canada & Singapore) and that's it really (I can also add some unfortunate qualy).

Also Ferrari had more pole, they are the only one who beat RB. And on some week end they were clear cut 2nd fast (Monza, Spa, Austria, even Canada when you look at there average race pace, & ofc Singapore). The only race were Merc was clear cut 2nd faster was Spain.

To that, I will add two things i) if your point is right why is Russell so far off ? +60pts when you battle in the midfield is huge ii) Hamilton did a pretty solid job, exactly because he has managed to beat/or at least split each cars when they were at their peak performance this year (so Alonso, then the Ferrari, and even at some point the McL but now ther're too fast) : i.e he managed to keep Alonso behind in Australia, which was pretty unexpected, and Stroll behind in Barhain (I know it's funny know but Stroll was fast at the beginning of the year, and Russell finished behind him this race), same for Baku where Stroll finished ahead of Russell but behind Hamilton. When Ferrari became much much faster Hamilton kept them behind in Canada, while Russell hit the wall (he DNF but he would've finished behind them due to his mistake due to their amazing pace that race). Same for Silverstone where Hamilton end up ahead of Piastri (lucky we have to say). In Hungary, Russell overtook both Ferrari at the last minute, but ended up behind Piastri, while Hamilton was splitting both McLaren.
I will not even mention Singapore... In Japan, again Hamilton splitted both Ferrari while Russell finished behind both.

If we do a counterfactual (I do not change the others teams points for sake of simplicity, but you will get my point) were Hamilton had scored as many points as Russell this will be the WCC standings :
- Ferrari : 298 pts
- Mercedes : 264 pts
- Aston Martin : 230 pts
- McLaren : 219 pts

It's not the same year for Merc without Hamilton in that car

If we do a counterfactual (I do not change the others teams points for sake of simplicity, but you will get my point) were Hamilton had scored as many points as Russell this will be the WCC standings :

Let us do this excercise for real instead of adjusting one team and not the other.

So for Russell, in Australia he was on for P2, Canada top 4, Zandvoort top 8 minimum, Singapore top 3. That's like 50 points worth of retirements at least. You look at a guy like Leclerc who has also had 4 retirements, he has lost maybe 20-30 points from those based on pace and position. Taking mistakes and unreliability out of the equation would place Russell ahead of both Ferraris. The Merc is just better in the races, the Ferrari has too much deg. So I'm not shocked Lewis is P3, that is where he ought to be based on the pace of the car. Russell's costly mistakes are what have put him and the team in a position where it looks kinda close with Ferrari.

Sainz DNF at Spa while his teamates cruised to 3rd (would've finished 5th at least) = 10 pts
Leclerc DNF in Barhain while being 3rd = 15 pts
Sainz took a restart penalty in Australia while being 4th, Leclerc DNF with lap one incident we could argue he would've finished 6th (I'm conservative) = 12 pts for Sainz, 8 pts for Leclerc
Leclerc DNF with lap one damage in Zandvoort while Sainz finished 5th = 10 pts
Sainz DNS for fuel leak in Qatar while his teamate finished 5th, and he finished ahead of him in Sprint race, Sainz would've finished 6th let's say = 8 pts.
It's ~30 pts lost for Sainz & ~ +30 for Leclerc

As for Russell, given how close Alonso was to Hamilton I don't think he would've been able to keep them behind.
Canada... Hamilton and Alonso were clearly faster than him. And given that both Ferrari who went out on Q2 finished 4 sec behind Hamilton given their tremendous race pace on this track I don't think he would've even finished 5th.
Zandvoorst is "just" a strategic mistake from Merc, as the Silverstone mess was for Ferrari but I'm not counting it.
Singapore I agree, but we also have to keep in mind Leclerc race was compromised

I'm not counting Ferrari mistakes (slow pit stop, strategic blunder). They should be ahead in the WCC & WDC imo

[Luscion]

https://spotify.link/oBE4XGOuYDb (interview with him starts around 15:42)

James Allison talking about the W14 and the 15 if anyone's interested. He says the floor in Austin is only worth about a tenth but says it's to produce downforce in the right place, make the car resistant to bouncing especially when they add downforce and that "it should be good at any circuit" going forward. Even though it's worth a tenth I wonder how much more it will allow the drivers to push the car and get more out of it

[Cs98]

Sainz DNF at Spa while his teamates cruised to 3rd (would've finished 5th at least) = 10 pts
Leclerc DNF in Barhain while being 3rd = 15 pts
Sainz took a restart penalty in Australia while being 4th, Leclerc DNF with lap one incident we could argue he would've finished 6th (I'm conservative) = 12 pts for Sainz, 8 pts for Leclerc
Leclerc DNF with lap one damage in Zandvoort while Sainz finished 5th = 10 pts
Sainz DNS for fuel leak in Qatar while his teamate finished 5th, and he finished ahead of him in Sprint race, Sainz would've finished 6th let's say = 8 pts.
It's ~30 pts lost for Sainz & ~ +30 for Leclerc

As for Russell, given how close Alonso was to Hamilton I don't think he would've been able to keep them behind.
Canada... Hamilton and Alonso were clearly faster than him. And given that both Ferrari who went out on Q2 finished 4 sec behind Hamilton given their tremendous race pace on this track I don't think he would've even finished 5th.
Zandvoorst is "just" a strategic mistake from Merc, as the Silverstone mess was for Ferrari but I'm not counting it.
Singapore I agree, but we also have to keep in mind Leclerc race was compromised

I'm not counting Ferrari mistakes (slow pit stop, strategic blunder). They should be ahead in the WCC & WDC imo

There you go. Ferrari dropping around 30pts each, Russell more like 50. He should be ahead of both of them in the WDC but he has made too many mistakes. Hamilton to his credit has not made as many mistakes, but the car is the second fastest across this season so it's no wonder he is 3rd.