2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

Sieper wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 15:24
These are also quite literally the most expensive wins ever in the sport.

This also happened in football. In the 90s my local club was able to upset a bigger team every now and then. Now, no way. The big money rules the sport. Too big. Maybe even for F1 also as it cannot attract any new manufacturers, nor has it been able to keep the current.
That's not Merc's, or Hamilton's fault.

Blame The FIA, Bernie, and Liberty for carrying on with Bernie's practices. In the Fia never ending reach for more control and power, they have driven F1 into an ever deeper rabbit hole to find performance. The rules are so complex and overbearing they put a nuclear arms treaty document to shame.

Bernie and Liberty have also done their part to drive up costs. The new 200 Million dollar entrance fee for example.
201 105 104 9 9 7

User avatar
Sieper
73
Joined: 14 Mar 2017, 15:19

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

I did not say or imply fault, nor did I make any statement about how good or valid Lewis WDCs are. It was being said “cheap” victories. Made me think they actually cost a lot.

And I agree with Dans79 about how we came into this situation. The question maybe now is, is it sustainable and do we want it? I can honestly say, even if at some point Max might have a dominant car, no I do not want that. I understand there will always be dominant teams, that is the nature of the sport, but I do think we need more manufacturers entering again, instead of exitting. We need talents in seats. It needs to be the pinnacle of driving skills. Pretty soon we will have 3 sons billionaires in 20 Seats.

DChemTech
DChemTech
44
Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 11:31
Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

Sieper wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 16:30
I did not say or imply fault, nor did I make any statement about how good or valid Lewis WDCs are. It was being said “cheap” victories. Made me think they actually cost a lot.

And I agree with Dans79 about how we came into this situation. The question maybe now is, is it sustainable and do we want it? I can honestly say, even if at some point Max might have a dominant car, no I do not want that. I understand there will always be dominant teams, that is the nature of the sport, but I do think we need more manufacturers entering again, instead of exitting. We need talents in seats. It needs to be the pinnacle of driving skills. Pretty soon we will have 3 sons billionaires in 20 Seats.
Honestly I think budget caps are the only way to really achieve parity, in any of these multi-million viewer sports. Left to the market, a few teams will be caught in a spiral of increasing success/funds and totally eclipse the rest. If you want a fair competition, that means aiming for rules that focus on 'who does best with equal resources', rather than 'who can buy success hence make more money hence buy better [players/drivers/equipment/...]'. It may or may not dissuade billionaire participation (teams may rely less on them to fill the budget), and if the sport as a whole gets cheaper, it may actually make tickets etc. more accessible - in a way, consumers are also victim to the spiraling costs (but equally part of the cause; them being willing to pay crazy prizes for tickets and t-shirts makes in part is cause of the major budgets. a tragedy of the commons, in ways...)

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

DChemTech wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 16:45

Honestly I think budget caps are the only way to really achieve parity, in any of these multi-million viewer sports. Left to the market, a few teams will be caught in a spiral of increasing success/funds and totally eclipse the rest. If you want a fair competition, that means aiming for rules that focus on 'who does best with equal resources', rather than 'who can buy success hence make more money hence buy better [players/drivers/equipment/...]'.
IMO, the budget cap is forced equality, something I'm very strongly against.

When the rules were substantially more open, we didn't have this type of issue for several seasons in a row. There where so many possible development paths, that it wasn't possible to investigate them all, no matter how much money you had. As the rules stand today, the development paths are so few and so narrow that you can just throw money at investigating all of them.

What Bernie did, and Liberty is continuing to do, is take it a development centric formula series and turn it into a garbage soap opera.
201 105 104 9 9 7

DChemTech
DChemTech
44
Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 11:31
Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

dans79 wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 17:29
DChemTech wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 16:45

Honestly I think budget caps are the only way to really achieve parity, in any of these multi-million viewer sports. Left to the market, a few teams will be caught in a spiral of increasing success/funds and totally eclipse the rest. If you want a fair competition, that means aiming for rules that focus on 'who does best with equal resources', rather than 'who can buy success hence make more money hence buy better [players/drivers/equipment/...]'.
IMO, the budget cap is forced equality, something I'm very strongly against.

When the rules were substantially more open, we didn't have this type of issue for several seasons in a row. There where so many possible development paths, that it wasn't possible to investigate them all, no matter how much money you had. As the rules stand today, the development paths are so few and so narrow that you can just throw money at investigating all of them.

What Bernie did, and Liberty is continuing to do, is take it a development centric formula series and turn it into a garbage soap opera.
I have to disagree with you there. Specs is forced equality, a budget cap is a forced level playing field - and a sport needs that to be exiting. Especially if you want to open up the rules more (which I favor) because it gives different routes to explore, with each team having equal means to do so. Anyway, this is not the place for detailed discussions on that topic, I think there's a separate thread for that (where these discussions no doubt have been held).

aral
aral
26
Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

Just a reminder that the topic of this thread is the 2020 Portugese GP, and not the usual arguments over which driver is better than another. So please less of the driver comparison arguments.

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

Big +1 to both Dan and DC. I'd give you both an upvote but that would violate the site rules. :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

User avatar
etusch
131
Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 23:09
Location: Turkey

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

There is not slow driver, there is less vodka


User avatar
ispano6
153
Joined: 09 Mar 2017, 23:56
Location: my playseat

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

Imagine how much more interesting this season would have been if engine upgrades were allowed.
The season is pretty much over and the rest of the races are to determine 3rd through 7th place in the constructors standings and 4th-12th in the drivers.

User avatar
carisi2k
28
Joined: 15 Oct 2014, 23:26

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

foxmulder_ms wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 16:15
carisi2k wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 08:34
Lewis didn't beat Alonso he tied him and he never convincingly beat button. In fact in 2011 it was Jenson that spanked Lewis significantly. But your point is taken that Lewis has had harder teammates then Max and Charles.
Have another look at the standings for 2007. :) And Ham was a rookie, Alonso was 2 time champion, 6 poles vs 2... !

That is a beating.
Poles don't pay. Massa out qualified Kimi and yet who ended up being WC in 2007.

What happened in the races was 4 wins a piece and 6 for kimi. They finished on the same points and there fore it was a tie. Lewis is no ordinary rookie. Who else in the history of F1 has ever been given a race winning and championship capable car in their first year. While Lewis was a rookie in terms of F1 races he certainly wasn't a rookie at Mclaren whereas Fernando was. It makes you wonder what would have happened if Fernando stayed at Renault instead of going to Mclaren.

DChemTech
DChemTech
44
Joined: 25 Mar 2019, 11:31
Location: Delft, NL

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

carisi2k wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 06:23
foxmulder_ms wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 16:15
carisi2k wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 08:34
Lewis didn't beat Alonso he tied him and he never convincingly beat button. In fact in 2011 it was Jenson that spanked Lewis significantly. But your point is taken that Lewis has had harder teammates then Max and Charles.
Have another look at the standings for 2007. :) And Ham was a rookie, Alonso was 2 time champion, 6 poles vs 2... !

That is a beating.
Poles don't pay. Massa out qualified Kimi and yet who ended up being WC in 2007.

What happened in the races was 4 wins a piece and 6 for kimi. They finished on the same points and there fore it was a tie. Lewis is no ordinary rookie. Who else in the history of F1 has ever been given a race winning and championship capable car in their first year. While Lewis was a rookie in terms of F1 races he certainly wasn't a rookie at Mclaren whereas Fernando was. It makes you wonder what would have happened if Fernando stayed at Renault instead of going to Mclaren.
Villeneuve comes to mind on getting a winning car in year 1.. and well, he didn't do too bad at that, either.

User avatar
NathanOlder
48
Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 10:05
Location: Kent

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

True. But Jacques lost to Damon Hill, where as Lewis beat Fernando Alonso. Alonso is probably 2 tiers higher than Hill.

Hamilton beating Alonso was simply amazing. Remembering things like Max losing to Ricciardo for 2 seasons before he beat him. Schumacher was outscored by Piquet in their time as team mates in 91. Alain Prost was outscored by John Watson in 1980. So it kind of puts into perspective how big Lewis' debut season was. Its like Mick Schumacher coming in next season and beating Lewis in the same car.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

Note also Alonso was a 2 x defending champion!
For Sure!!

Jolle
Jolle
133
Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

DChemTech wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 11:03
carisi2k wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 06:23
foxmulder_ms wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 16:15


Have another look at the standings for 2007. :) And Ham was a rookie, Alonso was 2 time champion, 6 poles vs 2... !

That is a beating.
Poles don't pay. Massa out qualified Kimi and yet who ended up being WC in 2007.

What happened in the races was 4 wins a piece and 6 for kimi. They finished on the same points and there fore it was a tie. Lewis is no ordinary rookie. Who else in the history of F1 has ever been given a race winning and championship capable car in their first year. While Lewis was a rookie in terms of F1 races he certainly wasn't a rookie at Mclaren whereas Fernando was. It makes you wonder what would have happened if Fernando stayed at Renault instead of going to Mclaren.
Villeneuve comes to mind on getting a winning car in year 1.. and well, he didn't do too bad at that, either.
I think since Hamilton, Albon is the only driver who sat in a race winning car in his first season in F1.

User avatar
F1NAC
169
Joined: 31 Mar 2013, 22:35

Re: 2020 Portuguese Grand Prix - Portimão, October 23 - 25

Post

Bottas smh ....