2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
User avatar
AeroDynamic
349
Joined: 28 Sep 2021, 12:25
Location: La règle du jeu

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

Ryar wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 07:27
AeroDynamic wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 07:18
Ryar wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 07:04
One can try and please oneself however they want with that decision, by adding self-satiating dimentions. The official document simply read, "Driver #44, was at fault predominantly". They didn't even mention Max in that statement.
Why do they need to mention max? They aren’t serving him a penalty, so they don’t need to outline his fault in the incident to Lewis. Predominantly is not wholly. It means more to blame than the other, and as I said before, it’s pure speculation how much They blamed Hamilton. But given he got an equivalent penalty to Max in Monza, and RB called Monza a racing incident, then that demonstrates the line the FIA have been taking this year, and how little they thought of Hamilton’s move.. after all, red bull complained that max nearly died, and the car was a huge bill. Yet the FIA felt a few seconds was appropriate, despite how Lewis was able to continue and max wasn’t. The post crash circumstances gave them plenty angle to blame Lewis wholly or near wholly, to give a very harsh penalty.. but it didn’t come. Hmm. Something can’t be right, he must be almost fully to blame from what you keep inferring, but FIA didn’t agree with what red bull felt was appropriate. Sigh, must be MaFIA.. Monza was looked at similarity to Silverstone, despite Most people Agree that both were racing incidents. the ones that don’t, are mostly made up of partisan followers behind one or the other camp / driver.
I highlighted about Max not having mentioned in the Silverstone verdict, because you apportioned blame to Max, without officials having said anything about it!
FIA sporting rules clearly say and the race director has highlighted, they don't consider the impact in an incident. So, they have a rule book and they use it to dish out penalty. Everything else is subjective and irrelevant for officials. Whether the penalty dished out to Lewis is appropriate or light, is a matter of subjective discussion, considering the damage it did to Max's car and the real potential physical danger of it. For all practical and official intent and purposes, Lewis was to blame in Silverstone. That incident cannot be attributed to prove that Max doesn't know how to handle a championship fight situation.
It does. He just had the circumstances, conditions, car, team, and engine behind him to survive such a setback. All I said earlier is there will come other seasons and circumstances where another driver / team in a very good car will make (his) unnecessary but costly incidents of his making, the critical factor of losing a championship he could have otherwise won.

They don’t need to say anything about it, the fact they couldn’t and didn’t blame Hamilton wholly, by default means they recognise max was to blame for the incident as well, just not as much as Lewis. Based on the penalty, it couldn’t have been as much as those hysterical grieving red bull employees called it :lol:

Yes I know what the FIA want us to believe but everybody watching doesn’t believe that rings true every time. a lot of viewers have valid opinions to see the inconsistency of penalties, and why it appears naive to take their word as gospel. :)

And yes it can because we’ve watched over the last several years where he’s been improving from. He was known for throwing away numerous results with crashes, to the point where even the journalists were asking him why he has so many incidents.. to which, max, with an embarrassed look on his face, paused before saying “I don’t know”. Funny, because the paddock has been knowing for years.

User avatar
jumpingfish
53
Joined: 26 Jan 2019, 16:19
Location: Ru

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

Tizz wrote:
07 Nov 2021, 13:03
jumpingfish wrote:
07 Nov 2021, 12:46
Isn't it better for Verstappen not to be on pole with his straight line speed? I think starting from pole he could be an easy target for both Mercedes before T1 :?
I think so too. It may turn out to be a blessing in disguise. It's going to be an interesting T1 in any case.
So.. It was :D

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

Restomaniac wrote:
07 Nov 2021, 22:14
I hope to god we have balanced teams next year. We’ve gone from 1 car that’s too fast last year to just a different car being too fast this year.

It’s nobody’s fault it’s just how it is.
I think that you must be watching a different season to me???
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

sosic2121
sosic2121
13
Joined: 08 Jun 2016, 12:14

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

Ryar wrote:
07 Nov 2021, 23:18
sosic2121 wrote:
07 Nov 2021, 23:15
F1NAC wrote:
07 Nov 2021, 23:13
How can that Gasly - Alonso situation in Turkey be penalised yet not even an investigation against Ricciardo. What a BS
I agree. Ric destroyed Bottas' race
Sort of payback for Hungary.
Lol
You're right :lol:

AriaanGert
AriaanGert
0
Joined: 03 Mar 2020, 22:27

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

I see a lot of shouting about Bottas. He is useless etc. But still took pole. That can't be just the car (or what does it say about Hamilton qualifing skills?)
I don't believe Bottas tried to help Verstappen, but on the contrary, I think he wanted to make space for Hamilton, who was at the inside. It looked to me as a planned move: leave space, brake early, let Lewis go. He braked way to early (why would he? he was on the best line) and hadn't prepared for Max being already alongside. Maybe even discussed and planned with the team, because it was so mechanical. No racecraft at all.
But at least he didn't play bowling ball.

User avatar
Ryar
6
Joined: 31 Jan 2021, 17:28

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

AriaanGert wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 10:34
I see a lot of shouting about Bottas. He is useless etc. But still took pole. That can't be just the car (or what does it say about Hamilton qualifing skills?)
I don't believe Bottas tried to help Verstappen, but on the contrary, I think he wanted to make space for Hamilton, who was at the inside. It looked to me as a planned move: leave space, brake early, let Lewis go. He braked way to early (why would he? he was on the best line) and hadn't prepared for Max being already alongside. Maybe even discussed and planned with the team, because it was so mechanical. No racecraft at all.
But at least he didn't play bowling ball.
I agree with this assessment. Lewis got the best start of the 3. Probably, the plan for Bottas was to move to the right with a good start and give Lewis a tow. It didn't materialize as Lewis got side by side instantly, which left Bottas to simply go straight. He tried to break tow of Max by trying to move to the right. He probably didn't move back to the left, thinking of keeping the inside line and not let Max in there. The track was too wide for just two cars and Max already got traction with little tow. It didn't help the matters as Lewis had moved to left, leaving space on his inside, where there was nobody. Bottas braked early to let Lewis through, but Max had other ideas to take longer route to the corner via outside and also braking very late. Lewis was blind sighted to Max making that move from the outside.
In some ways, Lewis forced Bottas to tow Max by aggressively moving to the left at the start.



Hakuna Matata!

User avatar
andrewf1
15
Joined: 01 Sep 2012, 15:22

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

AriaanGert wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 10:34
I see a lot of shouting about Bottas. He is useless etc. But still took pole. That can't be just the car (or what does it say about Hamilton qualifing skills?)
I don't believe Bottas tried to help Verstappen, but on the contrary, I think he wanted to make space for Hamilton, who was at the inside. It looked to me as a planned move: leave space, brake early, let Lewis go. He braked way to early (why would he? he was on the best line) and hadn't prepared for Max being already alongside. Maybe even discussed and planned with the team, because it was so mechanical. No racecraft at all.
But at least he didn't play bowling ball.
If he wanted to make space for Lewis, he would have went for the outside line, thereby blocking Max automatically.
What he did forced both him and Lewis off the racing line and Lewis even more so on the dirty line.

And more importantly, gave way to Merc's rival to take the lead of the race.
From the team's point of view, there's not many ways he could have started worse.

Seemed as though he had absolutely no plan for the guys behind.

Michelangelo
Michelangelo
0
Joined: 01 Aug 2021, 17:35

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

He gave a full space for Max on the left with a tow as a bonus. Lewis was on the inside line so braking early with a better positioning would give the lead to Lewis while blocking Max.

max_speed
max_speed
4
Joined: 29 Oct 2012, 04:33

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

AriaanGert wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 10:34
I see a lot of shouting about Bottas. He is useless etc. But still took pole. That can't be just the car (or what does it say about Hamilton qualifing skills?)
I don't believe Bottas tried to help Verstappen, but on the contrary, I think he wanted to make space for Hamilton, who was at the inside. It looked to me as a planned move: leave space, brake early, let Lewis go. He braked way to early (why would he? he was on the best line) and hadn't prepared for Max being already alongside. Maybe even discussed and planned with the team, because it was so mechanical. No racecraft at all.
But at least he didn't play bowling ball.
I agree with your assessment. He was close to hamilton to benefit him with slisptream and let him take lead but verstappen surprised him. I do not think toto and hamilton did any good by crticizing him in public, whatever motivation he might have left will vaporize now. That person took pole and gave lewis tow , all these comments truly shows how biased merc has been towards hamilton. Now hunter is being hunted and i will expect no mercy from redbull :). Thanks to Toto , hamilton will have to fend off attacks on his own now amd true pressure will be on Merc now.

basti313
basti313
28
Joined: 22 Feb 2014, 14:49

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

andrewf1 wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 10:59
AriaanGert wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 10:34
I see a lot of shouting about Bottas. He is useless etc. But still took pole. That can't be just the car (or what does it say about Hamilton qualifing skills?)
I don't believe Bottas tried to help Verstappen, but on the contrary, I think he wanted to make space for Hamilton, who was at the inside. It looked to me as a planned move: leave space, brake early, let Lewis go. He braked way to early (why would he? he was on the best line) and hadn't prepared for Max being already alongside. Maybe even discussed and planned with the team, because it was so mechanical. No racecraft at all.
But at least he didn't play bowling ball.
If he wanted to make space for Lewis, he would have went for the outside line, thereby blocking Max automatically.
What he did forced both him and Lewis off the racing line and Lewis even more so on the dirty line.

And more importantly, gave way to Merc's rival to take the lead of the race.
From the team's point of view, there's not many ways he could have started worse.

Seemed as though he had absolutely no plan for the guys behind.
I am surprised that many people on this forums seem to either not watch or quickly forget F1 races...

Please have a look at Sochi 2019 or Mexico 2019 and you will see on the first glance, without difficulty, what happens if the car on P1 stays on the outside.
It will give P3 a slipstream that will prevent P2 from entering the slipstream as P3 is there.

The only chance to win the start for Ham with a "normal" start was to move Bot to Ham and give him slip instead of Ver. That was clearly the strategy. As Bot did not have a particularly bad start, rather Ham a very good one, it was impossible for him to judge that Ham was too close for this. As the field of view is super small, he could not see Ham in the mirror until it was too late.
Don`t russel the hamster!

bonjon1979
bonjon1979
30
Joined: 11 Feb 2009, 17:16

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

max_speed wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 11:35
AriaanGert wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 10:34
I see a lot of shouting about Bottas. He is useless etc. But still took pole. That can't be just the car (or what does it say about Hamilton qualifing skills?)
I don't believe Bottas tried to help Verstappen, but on the contrary, I think he wanted to make space for Hamilton, who was at the inside. It looked to me as a planned move: leave space, brake early, let Lewis go. He braked way to early (why would he? he was on the best line) and hadn't prepared for Max being already alongside. Maybe even discussed and planned with the team, because it was so mechanical. No racecraft at all.
But at least he didn't play bowling ball.
I agree with your assessment. He was close to hamilton to benefit him with slisptream and let him take lead but verstappen surprised him. I do not think toto and hamilton did any good by crticizing him in public, whatever motivation he might have left will vaporize now. That person took pole and gave lewis tow , all these comments truly shows how biased merc has been towards hamilton. Now hunter is being hunted and i will expect no mercy from redbull :). Thanks to Toto , hamilton will have to fend off attacks on his own now amd true pressure will be on Merc now.
Bottas clearly moves to the right to squeeze hamilton instead of drifting out wide to give verstappen no room. Had the double effect of giving max space while forcing hamilton to break earlier because he was too tight on the inside, while presenting max with the perfect racing line. I'd swap him out of the car for the remaining races as it's so clearly 2 against one

User avatar
andrewf1
15
Joined: 01 Sep 2012, 15:22

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

basti313 wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 11:41
andrewf1 wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 10:59
AriaanGert wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 10:34
I see a lot of shouting about Bottas. He is useless etc. But still took pole. That can't be just the car (or what does it say about Hamilton qualifing skills?)
I don't believe Bottas tried to help Verstappen, but on the contrary, I think he wanted to make space for Hamilton, who was at the inside. It looked to me as a planned move: leave space, brake early, let Lewis go. He braked way to early (why would he? he was on the best line) and hadn't prepared for Max being already alongside. Maybe even discussed and planned with the team, because it was so mechanical. No racecraft at all.
But at least he didn't play bowling ball.
If he wanted to make space for Lewis, he would have went for the outside line, thereby blocking Max automatically.
What he did forced both him and Lewis off the racing line and Lewis even more so on the dirty line.

And more importantly, gave way to Merc's rival to take the lead of the race.
From the team's point of view, there's not many ways he could have started worse.

Seemed as though he had absolutely no plan for the guys behind.
I am surprised that many people on this forums seem to either not watch or quickly forget F1 races...

Please have a look at Sochi 2019 or Mexico 2019 and you will see on the first glance, without difficulty, what happens if the car on P1 stays on the outside.
It will give P3 a slipstream that will prevent P2 from entering the slipstream as P3 is there.

The only chance to win the start for Ham with a "normal" start was to move Bot to Ham and give him slip instead of Ver. That was clearly the strategy. As Bot did not have a particularly bad start, rather Ham a very good one, it was impossible for him to judge that Ham was too close for this. As the field of view is super small, he could not see Ham in the mirror until it was too late.
If Bottas had moved to the outside with Lewis along the inside of him, Max would have been blocked and boxed with no way to go. Funny that you give Mexico 2019 as an example - it is exactly what happened to Lewis, also starting from P3. Blocked by Leclerc and boxed by Vettel.

The point was about keeping Max behind, not about making sure that Lewis gets ahead into turn 1.
Not sure why you're arguing with "the only chance to win the start for Ham" as nobody really made that argument.

The ease with which Bottas made way for Max is irritating a lot of Merc fans.
Or to put it in another way, do you think Max or Lewis would have taken the same line as Bottas did if they had started from pole, with the other in P3?

User avatar
atanatizante
115
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 15:33

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

Facts: in Q2= 46-45 C and race 49C.

Based on the Q2 results on medium tyres which was the main reason Merc were slower in the race?
Due to overheating the tyres and having to manage them more, due to the lack of downforce caused by the altitude or just mechanical grip due to chassis philosophy?
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

User avatar
andrewf1
15
Joined: 01 Sep 2012, 15:22

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

For reference - what Ferrari did to Lewis in Mexico 2019 is what Merc should have done to Max in 2021. Instead, Bottas left the door wide open while staying in the middle of track.

Image

101FlyingDutchman
101FlyingDutchman
17
Joined: 27 Feb 2019, 12:01

Re: 2021 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Nov 05 - 07

Post

andrewf1 wrote:
08 Nov 2021, 12:09
For reference - what Ferrari did to Lewis in Mexico 2019 is what Merc should have done to Max in 2021. Instead, Bottas left the door wide open while staying in the middle of track.

https://i.imgur.com/NrFj12n.gif
That would be correct if BOT had a decent start which he didn’t