Felipe Massa - Robbed of his Prime?

[SectorOne]

http://blogs.bettor.com/Saubers-Sergio- ... ews-a81576

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/13734813

http://grandprix247.com/2011/06/10/de-l ... in-canada/

First link no mention of any blackouts but he does mention the impact to the head.

Found this interesting, as it´s probably something Massa experienced after his crash,

Perez told the media that Monaco accident discouraged him a lot for the remaining races of the 2011 Formula 1 season.

Second link, no mention of a blackout, but mentions he felt ill.

"I am deeply disappointed. I spoke to the team after the session and told them that I'm not a 100% fit. I only want to drive when I'm 100% well. I need some more time to recover."

BBC 5 live pit-lane reporter Jennie Gow said she had been told by team boss Peter Sauber that Perez "lacked confidence and wasn't as comfortable in the car as he felt he should be".
And commenting on Perez's withdrawal, Sauber added: "Maybe we are being overly cautious, but when it's about the health of our drivers we take zero risks."

Perhaps it´s a combination of mental issue and physical issue. Would like to find the link where he says he nearly blacked out on the straight, that would put a nail in the coffin as far as my argument goes.

[GitanesBlondes]

Incredibly gifted drivers when the circumstances were right, yet not quite as able to perform when the circumstances do not suit them.

I think this is a very common sentence used about f1 drivers. But in my opinion it doesn't make sense without any quantification. Every driver performs better when the circumstances suit him than when the circumstances don't suit him. If you say this about Massa, you must also say it about Kimi and I would actually say it applies more to Kimi than to Massa, considering that Massa scored more points than Kimi during their time together at Ferrari. But my claim is that it applies to everyone and quantifications are difficult to make. It seems to me that Alonso has gotten Ferrari to make the circumstances suit him at Ferrari, at least most of the time.

In general, I think it is very common in sports to underestimate the psychological factor. Confidence is very important in all types of sports and I don't think f1 is any difference. Very often you see in a football match that once a team scores, they start playing better, and if a team comes under by 2 goals, they tend to play worse. But if they suddenly get a goal, you might see the team playing better again. Or how about the fact that it is an advantage to play football games at home? There is speculation that this has to do with fatigue from traveling and so on, i.e. physical reasons, but most studies point towards it all being down to psychology. The impact of this psychological factor is often very big, but it is often difficult to measure. When Alonso came to Ferrari, Massa beat him several times at the beginning of the season. After 7 races, Massa had beat Alonso in 4 of them. Then came three races where Massa didn't score and then we had the race in Germany where Massa again was on top, but received the team order. I can imagine that receiving a team order when you are finally set to win a race again, after 2 years, is a massive blow to your confidence. Massa had done very well at Ferrari for 3-4 years and then suddenly it was all about Alonso.

I am not saying that Alonso isn't better than Massa, but I think Massa is in a much more difficult situation pshychologically than Alonso. Last year, Alonso made a mistake at Suzuka and retired on the first lap. Vettel won his 2nd consecutive race and was suddenly just 4 points behind Alonso in a car that now seemed unstoppable. It could seem that this affected Alonso badly, as for the rest of the season, Massa was suddenly better than him on several occasions.

It may be a common thing to say about F1 drivers, however it doesn't make it any less true.

The good drivers do what is expected when the car and overall environment suits them.

It's the great drivers who rise above that to give something even more that the good drivers cannot do.

Take a look at what Michael did in the Benetton-Renault. When Gerhard Berger drove the B195 he expected it to be easy to drive as it won the championship, only when he drove it, he found the car to be incredibly difficult to drive. Much to the point he couldn't figure out how Schumacher did what he did with the car.

I do agree with you that psychological factors are a huge part of sport, and have said so for years. Supreme mental toughness is something very few have, but it was present in all of the great drivers. Not to say good drivers don't have it, but confidence isn't always there. It ebbs and flows.

[Stradivarius]

It may be a common thing to say about F1 drivers, however it doesn't make it any less true.

I didn't say it isn't true, I said it is true for all drivers, even the great drivers, i.e. it is not something that applies to good drivers and not to great drivers. When the circumstances suit them, they perform better than when the circumstances don't suit them. This was true for Prost, Senna and Schumacher, and it is true for Alonso and Hamilton as well as for Massa.

That is why I said it doesn't make much sense to talk about this without any quanitfication. You can say that a great driver is less dependent on the circumstances suiting him than a good driver. But how can you say that Massa is morependent on this than other drivers? At least he didn't seem to be more dependent on it than Kimi and I don't think it is obvious that Kimi isn't a great driver.

[Stradivarius]

For Massa to have defects on his brain that will hamper his driving (at least that seems to be the proposed idea) i just can´t see how that will go unnoticed.

I understand your point, but I don't think that anyone here are talking about defects on the brain in the way it is generally interpreted. It's a bit more subtle than that. For example, Michael Schumacher was cleared to race in his comback for Mercedes and he raced beyond the age of 43 years, despite the fact that he wasn't as quick as he was at the age of 33. I am no doctor, but if you were to assess the differences between Schumacher in 2012 and Schumacher in 2002 which made him a slower driver, you would have to look in his brain, even though Schumacher was perfectly healthy. Just the fact that Schumacher showed improvement during his 3 years driving for Mercedes, suggests very clearly that he was slowly learning how to be quicker, i.e. the brain developing so he could perform better. Whether or not you would say that his brain was hampering his driving, is up to you, but it definitely prevented him from driving as well as in 2002 (or pretty much his entire first career).

We are not talking about brain damage that a doctor can find through tests and by studying his brain. What has been suggested here is that Massa is slower because of the accident, and the reason may be psychological or may have something to do with his subconsciousness, which is not investigated in medical tests. You are entitled to doubt this hypothesis, but your argument that Massa's performance isn't suffereing because he is cleared to race after medical tests, isn't valid. These tests clearly can't, won't and don't prove that the driver is as capable and as quick as he was in his prime. The purpose of such tests is only to discover known risk factors and prevent drivers from putting themselves in danger if any such thing is found.

[GitanesBlondes]

For Massa to have defects on his brain that will hamper his driving (at least that seems to be the proposed idea) i just can´t see how that will go unnoticed.

I understand your point, but I don't think that anyone here are talking about defects on the brain in the way it is generally interpreted. It's a bit more subtle than that. For example, Michael Schumacher was cleared to race in his comback for Mercedes and he raced beyond the age of 43 years, despite the fact that he wasn't as quick as he was at the age of 33. I am no doctor, but if you were to assess the differences between Schumacher in 2012 and Schumacher in 2002 which made him a slower driver, you would have to look in his brain, even though Schumacher was perfectly healthy. Just the fact that Schumacher showed improvement during his 3 years driving for Mercedes, suggests very clearly that he was slowly learning how to be quicker, i.e. the brain developing so he could perform better. Whether or not you would say that his brain was hampering his driving, is up to you, but it definitely prevented him from driving as well as in 2002 (or pretty much his entire first career).

We are not talking about brain damage that a doctor can find through tests and by studying his brain. What has been suggested here is that Massa is slower because of the accident, and the reason may be psychological or may have something to do with his subconsciousness, which is not investigated in medical tests. You are entitled to doubt this hypothesis, but your argument that Massa's performance isn't suffereing because he is cleared to race after medical tests, isn't valid. These tests clearly can't, won't and don't prove that the driver is as capable and as quick as he was in his prime. The purpose of such tests is only to discover known risk factors and prevent drivers from putting themselves in danger if any such thing is found.

Schumacher had to learn how to drive an altogether different formula that was nothing like the one he drove in last.

[sennafan24]

I understand your point, but I don't think that anyone here are talking about defects on the brain in the way it is generally interpreted. It's a bit more subtle than that. For example, Michael Schumacher was cleared to race in his comback for Mercedes and he raced beyond the age of 43 years, despite the fact that he wasn't as quick as he was at the age of 33. I am no doctor, but if you were to assess the differences between Schumacher in 2012 and Schumacher in 2002 which made him a slower driver, you would have to look in his brain, even though Schumacher was perfectly healthy. Just the fact that Schumacher showed improvement during his 3 years driving for Mercedes, suggests very clearly that he was slowly learning how to be quicker, i.e. the brain developing so he could perform better. Whether or not you would say that his brain was hampering his driving, is up to you, but it definitely prevented him from driving as well as in 2002 (or pretty much his entire first career).

We are not talking about brain damage that a doctor can find through tests and by studying his brain. What has been suggested here is that Massa is slower because of the accident, and the reason may be psychological or may have something to do with his subconsciousness, which is not investigated in medical tests. You are entitled to doubt this hypothesis, but your argument that Massa's performance isn't suffereing because he is cleared to race after medical tests, isn't valid. These tests clearly can't, won't and don't prove that the driver is as capable and as quick as he was in his prime. The purpose of such tests is only to discover known risk factors and prevent drivers from putting themselves in danger if any such thing is found.

You have pretty much covered what I was trying to say early, with the exact comparison I used. =D>

[Stradivarius]

Schumacher had to learn how to drive an altogether different formula that was nothing like the one he drove in last.

But he did improve, didn't he? So in 2012 he was better than in 2010. His speed, and points and qualifying all show improvement when comparing to Rosberg. Do you think this means that the doctors could find something wrong in his brain in 2010?

[GitanesBlondes]

Schumacher had to learn how to drive an altogether different formula that was nothing like the one he drove in last.
That would work, if Kimi had not come back from a 2 year break and had such a impressive 2012. I know you can say everything changed in 2009 with the new regulations, but a lot changed in 2010 and 2011 when Kimi was taking a break.

I've been re-reading this a few times, and I'm not even sure if you've noticed the holes in your arguments.

[sennafan24]

Schumacher had to learn how to drive an altogether different formula that was nothing like the one he drove in last.
That would work, if Kimi had not come back from a 2 year break and had such a impressive 2012. I know you can say everything changed in 2009 with the new regulations, but a lot changed in 2010 and 2011 when Kimi was taking a break.

I've been re-reading this a few times, and I'm not even sure if you've noticed the holes in your arguments.

Ignore it, had a bit of a brain melt sorry

[SectorOne]

I understand your point, but I don't think that anyone here are talking about defects on the brain in the way it is generally interpreted. It's a bit more subtle than that. For example, Michael Schumacher was cleared to race in his comback for Mercedes

Ok if you could expand a bit more on the brain, more specifically the difference between Massa and Schumi it would do alot to the discussion. Schumi being old and Massa having taken a pretty hard hit to the skull/brain.
Which is another thing we can look at, just what areas in the brain is in the location of the impact.

There´s no age restriction in Formula 1 as far as i know so he will obviously be cleared to race in F1.

and he raced beyond the age of 43 years, despite the fact that he wasn't as quick as he was at the age of 33. I am no doctor, but if you were to assess the differences between Schumacher in 2012 and Schumacher in 2002 which made him a slower driver, you would have to look in his brain, even though Schumacher was perfectly healthy.

Has he mentioned this himself? I think i remember him saying he "still got it" in terms of pure pace after Monaco.

Just the fact that Schumacher showed improvement during his 3 years driving for Mercedes, suggests very clearly that he was slowly learning how to be quicker, i.e. the brain developing so he could perform better. Whether or not you would say that his brain was hampering his driving, is up to you, but it definitely prevented him from driving as well as in 2002 (or pretty much his entire first career).

Was that because he left the sport with different regulations and had to adapt to the new ones or was it because his brain is a little bit slower today?

We should get some scientific papers here on the brain and what happens to it over time.
That way we can exclude or include various theories on his performances.

[SectorOne]

Schumacher had to learn how to drive an altogether different formula that was nothing like the one he drove in last.

But he did improve, didn't he? So in 2012 he was better than in 2010. His speed, and points and qualifying all show improvement when comparing to Rosberg. Do you think this means that the doctors could find something wrong in his brain in 2010?

So you are saying the brain "fixed" the problem?
i think getting accustomed to the regs is the main reason he showed improvements year by year.

[Stradivarius]

Schumacher had to learn how to drive an altogether different formula that was nothing like the one he drove in last.

But he did improve, didn't he? So in 2012 he was better than in 2010. His speed, and points and qualifying all show improvement when comparing to Rosberg. Do you think this means that the doctors could find something wrong in his brain in 2010?

So you are saying the brain "fixed" the problem?
i think getting accustomed to the regs is the main reason he showed improvements year by year.

Where do you think the changes take place when a person adapts to new regulations? In his toe nails? Isn't it safe to assume that these changes take place in the brain? At least I can't think of any other place where this change would realistically take place. At the same time I doubt that such changes would be discovered in medical check ups to clear a driver for racing.

[Stradivarius]

There´s no age restriction in Formula 1 as far as i know so he will obviously be cleared to race in F1.

Exactly! So we know that a driver sooner or later will be slower with age, and we also know that being old doesn't mean you won't pass the medical tests necessary to be cleared for racing. Doesn't this mean that a driver can be slower without it meaning he would be cleared for racing? This is what has been presented as a possible explaination to Massa's disappointing results after his injury. Just as age may cause changes to your brain and make you slower, although you are still considered healty, an accident may also cause changes to your brain and make you slower even if you are considered healthy.

[SectorOne]

Where do you think the changes take place when a person adapts to new regulations? In his toe nails? Isn't it safe to assume that these changes take place in the brain? At least I can't think of any other place where this change would realistically take place. At the same time I doubt that such changes would be discovered in medical check ups to clear a driver for racing.

Definitely the brain. However my stance is that it´s simply getting to grips with new regs, your stance is that it´s an old brain that has gotten slower but is rebuilding itself because he´s racing more.
Your opinion is age, my is new regulations. I guess that is the main difference.

Not sure if you have noticed but you are sort of claiming that Schumacher´s brain is reversing it´s biology.
It´s old but it´s getting "newer" with more racing.

[SectorOne]

Exactly! So we know that a driver sooner or later will be slower with age,

Actually we don´t. Unless you have scientific papers on the subject all we have is theories, (on both sides i should say)
It seems you have just assumed you get slower with age, you even said "I´m no doctor".

And that goes for me too, i think some scientific papers on the brain would do very good.
I have taken some beers now so first thing in the morning i´ll see if i can gather some scientific papers on the brain and how it changes with aging or for example an impact like in Massa´s case.

I´m particularly interested in what sort of functions of the brain lies in the area of where Massa had the impact.