Driver Matchup: Alonso vs Raikkonen (2014)

[nipo]

I must say I don't share the optimistic sentiment some of you have shown for Kimi's move.

For me Alonso has always been a spoilt child, and tends to complain when he's already been given a pretty good position (2006 comment springs to mind when he was winning with Renault and said "I felt a little bit lonely..." - and subsequently changed teams). And of course we all remember 2007 and also Nelson Piquet Jr. (don't tell me he has nothing to do with Crashgate).

Kimi signing is a recipe for drama, if not disaster, for the Scuderia. Period.

I like Kimi and he really has been my hero since he came back (for the lack of heros in the current F1 grid). It is a shame he goes back to the team that sacked him after helping them win their only WDC since Schumi. I just have a feeling this won't turn out well for him and he'll never get a shot at WDC again. He might not get "Alonso is faster than you", but he's nearing his retirement age and I don't see why Ferrari won't make him the de facto number 2. I can't help thinking my last standing hero is headed the wrong way and right into trouble...

Anyhow, look, Vettel sits there smiling to himself "Now I have a really good shot at equalling Michael's record."

R.I.P. Formula1

btw - Where's Massa going?

[raymondu999]

he's nearing his retirement age and I don't see why Ferrari won't make him the de facto number 2

Alonso's 32 and Raikkonen's 33. If Raikkonen is "nearing retirement age" then Alonso is too

[iotar__]

he's nearing his retirement age and I don't see why Ferrari won't make him the de facto number 2

Alonso's 32 and Raikkonen's 33. If Raikkonen is "nearing retirement age" then Alonso is too

But 1 year 9 months+ later, if it matters (and I'm counting correctly):
Alon - 29 July 1981
Raikk - 17 October 1979

[Phil]

If they are able to do that, going from the team's perspective, then they should be ok. Massa always did that, the reason why Kimi didn't protested against orders in 2008. Alonso probably would have done the same if Massa was in contention for the title and he wasn't. It is the attitude you expect from your teammate. If they are going to be selfish on the other hand, it'll be impossible to turn that around and you'll get animosity.

There's only one little problem here... when is one 'out of contention' really? If we think back to the 2010 German Grand Prix where Ferrari employed team-orders to get Alonso infront of Massa, Massa wasn't really out of contention for the WDC. It was in the 11th round of a 19 race calendar and most people questioned if it was not a bit too early for a team to put its weight behind a single driver.

With both Kimi and Alonso aboard, I wouldn't expect them to do that this year around, although that might very well depend on how big the point difference between the two drivers is. But how well might Alonso or Kimi take it if the team would attempt such a thing? Probably not to happy. Then there is also the argument; when is one really out of contention? That same year, on numerous occasions, Button towards the end of season (tailing Hamilton in points) said he would only think about supporting his team-mate when he would be "mathematically" out of contention. Given that a race win at 25points is quite high and I think their point difference was rather small, Button was never really "out of contention" until pretty much the last race, yet his chances were very very slim. How do you explain to a driver like especially Alonso that he should be supporting his team-mate when technically there's a one in a million chance he could still win it if all contenders ahead of him have a DNF without the whole team blowing up?

IMO - it can work. Massa and Kimi worked well together and despite Kimi being the WDC, in 2008 (while not mathematically out of the contention) he supported Massa when he could. I would expect the same level of professionalism from Alonso and Kimi in 2014.

[tpe]

Prost - Senna anyone?
I am sorry, but this line-up, reminds me that reivarly. Of course, it could be just my idea and both of them be very professionals.

[iotar__]

If they are able to do that, going from the team's perspective, then they should be ok. Massa always did that, the reason why Kimi didn't protested against orders in 2008. Alonso probably would have done the same if Massa was in contention for the title and he wasn't. It is the attitude you expect from your teammate. If they are going to be selfish on the other hand, it'll be impossible to turn that around and you'll get animosity.

There's only one little problem here... when is one 'out of contention' really? If we think back to the 2010 German Grand Prix where Ferrari employed team-orders to get Alonso infront of Massa, Massa wasn't really out of contention for the WDC. It was in the 11th round of a 19 race calendar and most people questioned if it was not a bit too early for a team to put its weight behind a single driver.

With both Kimi and Alonso aboard, I wouldn't expect them to do that this year around, although that might very well depend on how big the point difference between the two drivers is. But how well might Alonso or Kimi take it if the team would attempt such a thing? Probably not to happy. Then there is also the argument; when is one really out of contention? That same year, on numerous occasions, Button towards the end of season (tailing Hamilton in points) said he would only think about supporting his team-mate when he would be "mathematically" out of contention. Given that a race win at 25points is quite high and I think their point difference was rather small, Button was never really "out of contention" until pretty much the last race, yet his chances were very very slim. How do you explain to a driver like especially Alonso that he should be supporting his team-mate when technically there's a one in a million chance he could still win it if all contenders ahead of him have a DNF without the whole team blowing up?

IMO - it can work. Massa and Kimi worked well together and despite Kimi being the WDC, in 2008 (while not mathematically out of the contention) he supported Massa when he could. I would expect the same level of professionalism from Alonso and Kimi in 2014.

Not this again, yes he was out of contention, just like Raikkonen was out of contention in Singapore 2012 when he was gifted glorious two points through team orders if you want to discuss those. And unlike all Raikkonen's Germany 2010 worked and gave them the chance to fight for championship until the last race.

Do you think Massa is in contention for championship this season? He only has to win all the races and Vettel not finish most of them (or sth close to that ), if it was between them two.

[Phil]

If you had taken the time to read my post carefully, you might have realized that I am not really talking about the right or wrong, but that there is a clear difference between when a team might want to start employing team-order and when a driver might be willing to. There's a difference between if a driver is 'mathematically' out of contention or if the chance is so small, that it makes sense for a team to give one of its drivers the best possible chance (at the expense of the other). I think Hamilton and Button is a nice example, as it shows two drivers who were fairly close in the 2010 right until the end in points. If we imagine Kimi and Alonso being evenly matched, it might create some friction if the team does reach a point when they feel they need to put their weight behind a driver, even if both are still in contention (even if one to a lesser degree). And I don't really doubt that it's Kimi who would be the problem here, but rather Alonso.

[andartop]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the teams and drivers also think about such things and include terms in the contracts they sign very specifically stating under which circumstances team orders would apply. If everyone agrees on these terms before an uncomfortable situation arises it shouldn't be a problem. They are all professionals after all.

[f1universe]

Really exciting pairing, I wonder what will happen if Kimi beats Fernando in the first races, and the other way around. I think people is going to be surprised by Alonso's actitude, no matter if he win or lose.

[SectorOne]

Interesting.

Seeing Alonso and Raikkonen battle it out in equal machinery would be a prospect many would savour - it would be fascinating to find out who would come out on top.

That will be debated endlessly - as comparisons between all the top F1 drivers always are. But one engineer who has worked closely with both is in doubt.

"I think Alonso, pretty convincingly," he said. "Everywhere - especially qualifying and the first laps of the race."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24031963

I guess this sort of paves the way for Hamilton
In terms of driver comparisons.

[iotar__]

If you had taken the time to read my post carefully, you might have realized that I am not really talking about the right or wrong, but that there is a clear difference between when a team might want to start employing team-order and when a driver might be willing to. There's a difference between if a driver is 'mathematically' out of contention or if the chance is so small, that it makes sense for a team to give one of its drivers the best possible chance (at the expense of the other). I think Hamilton and Button is a nice example, as it shows two drivers who were fairly close in the 2010 right until the end in points. If we imagine Kimi and Alonso being evenly matched, it might create some friction if the team does reach a point when they feel they need to put their weight behind a driver, even if both are still in contention (even if one to a lesser degree). And I don't really doubt that it's Kimi who would be the problem here, but rather Alonso.

That's not what you wrote and it's called splitting hair, the only reason for that is treating Raikkonen as some special flower and Alonso as an evil trouble-maker. There's nothing difficult to understand in the way Ferrari were applying TO in the last seven years (unlike Lotus in 2012-2013). They were the ones that gave Massa fair chance based on performance and contrary to similar splitting hair approach 2007 and 2008 were not that different in terms of driver's speed and abilities. It went in favour of one driver and the other year later.

I really enjoy the hypocrisy when it comes to driver treatment and team orders and it's only the beginning . If you're interested how KR reacted to team orders in his favour - the answer is total delusion and pretending that nothing happened: after Singapore race when he had no business being higher than ninth after not making it into Q3, getting up to one place up thanks to Ham's retirement, 2 places up through Schumacher crashing into Vergne, 1 place up through TEAM ORDERS, and of course the safety car he boldly announced that FIFTH PLACE was "possible". The other side: China 2008 - no problems. As for Alonso we'll have to see.

[munudeges]

It's crystal clear that Massa was never the same driver after Germany 2010 and there was no reason to do it. Anyone who thinks it was anything like Brazil 2007 or the following year is simply delusional.

From then on it was clear to everyone that Massa was never going to be allowed to win and that was the inevitable direction things went in. How is a driver going to get the results the team now seems to demand if he and everyone in the team knows he can't compete? That I'm afraid is the price of Alonso's "I want to be world champion" driver's campaign which Ferrari can no longer afford because it's killing their constructor's championship, and the income.

[Phil]

I really enjoy the hypocrisy

I seriously think you need to quit the attitude. As I have already stated now numerous times, I wasn't giving an opinion on what is 'right or wrong' - but merely questioning what problems the driver lineup might pose. I also don't think that one of the Ferrari drivers will find himself with that large a point gap as Alonso did with Massa. When you have a driver severely underperforming (like Massa has), it's a bit easier to form the moral argument within a team that you're effectively going to support the leading driver more midway through the season. The sole reason for hiring Kimi though is to have a stronger driver pairing, which will also (potentially) increase the chances that both drivers will both get more points - and as a result be closer together.

If we take Hamilton / Button in 2010 or even Alonso / Hamilton in 2007, you could see how evenly matched two highly competitive team-mates can be. Are we to expect Ferrari to simply let them race it out as McLaren did, or will they ask one of their drivers to drive at the expense of the other if lets say at Singapore one is in the lead slightly (slightly being 10-30 points of each other). In this case, both drivers would still be very much in the race to win WDC mathematically (as are the top 5 drivers now relative to Vettel, even if the chance is slim), so the point of view does vary. A team might feel the best bet is to support one of its drivers (if the situation demands it), but the driver might feel differently because in his view the points gap might be too small.

There is no right or wrong in light of it being a team-sport. As a spectator, I would *hope* that Ferrari is similar to McLaren in that regard - or the way they [Ferrari] handled the situation in 2008 when Massa was clearly their best bet towards the end.

[CBeck113]

I have the feeling that Alonso's recent actions have led to this, which actually played out well for Ferrari. Even if the desaster should come and Fred reverts to his 2007 self, then he'll leave at the end of the season, before his contract has expired. This will be costly for him / his next team, but not too bad for Ferrari, since they have Kimi. I do not believe that Fred will do this, however - he wants to be known as the best driver, and can only prove it by beating Kimi, which he most likely will. Kimi is as fast as his car, Alonso a bit faster (Ham also has this attribute, Seb I would put a tick behind Kimi, but only because his cars have been so good they've blinded his personal performance, he has matured greatly this year).

Another point to this: what would have happened if they didn't have a strong package in 2014? Who would have been available (at a reasonable price) if Alonso left after five consecutive years without a title? Kimi would have been very expensive w/o Alonso in the other car. But getting €13mil (just a guess!) is better than being promised €20mil, which we all know would be a steal for his talent.

It is also a way to test Stefano's leadership; I do believe that he doesn't have too much longer on his contract either...

This was a medium-term decision for Ferrari, considering their age, and adds marketing hype, even if the next car is a dog.

I say "Bravissimo!" and can't wait for next year. My prediction is Alonso in front of Kimi in the points, if their car is half way competitive they'll will the WCC, and maybe even WDC. But it will be fun to watch...before Seb and Fred change seats in 2016 - yes, you heard it here first

[turbof1]

There's only one little problem here... when is one 'out of contention' really? If we think back to the 2010 German Grand Prix where Ferrari employed team-orders to get Alonso infront of Massa, Massa wasn't really out of contention for the WDC. It was in the 11th round of a 19 race calendar and most people questioned if it was not a bit too early for a team to put its weight behind a single driver.

It's quite an ambigious concept yes. You do have the problem that drivers feel and express the opinion that they are still competing for the title even though realistically they have too much a gap. Ferrari does approach this much more realistically. Mathematically Massa wasn't out of contention, but the gap by then was too big to still talk about having a chance.