Should RBR take the Ferrari engines back from STR?

[ben_watkins]

The problem is due to Renault doing absolutely nothing with their engines since the freeze. As Flav put it in an interview, others have made some improvements/developments within the regulations but Renault has not and that has "buggered" them!

Edit - found a link http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/07/30/f ... velopment/

The Ferrari engine is a better unit.

[Miguel]

This is the full interview with Mark Webber from ITV.

Yeah, we've struggled for grip most of the weekend to be honest. Obviously we know there is a.., both Sebastians are obviously driving pretty well here plus they're setting the car a little bit differently, not massively but we know that they have a, um, stronger engine but probably not by the tune that they're ahead of us so, um, the engine's probably worth 4/10ths or so, but the rest is we need to do a better job. They've done a better job than us this weekend, in particular them, but not just them but a lot of other teams. You see where Renault are as well, and it's difficult day for them and so new venues and you know we had pace that we had for quite a few races ago, so it's getting frustrating.

Four tenths is a huge margin. An extremely huge margin. That is almost the difference between going all out to pass Q2 or bothering McLaren and Ferrari when the track allows. Well, maybe not that much, but it would certainly make a podium finish not look like a lottery win for either Renault or Red Bull.

[gcdugas]

The problem is due to Renault doing absolutely nothing with their engines since the freeze. As Flav put it in an interview, others have made some improvements/developments within the regulations but Renault has not and that has "buggered" them!

Edit - found a link http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/07/30/f ... velopment/

The Ferrari engine is a better unit.

I believe that the process for a manufacturer to apply for an engine component design change "for reliability" involves not only the FIA approving the change but also their fellow competitors approving the change. This article makes it clear that all the other teams know what modifications their peers are applying for and why. The other teams can also say no to the request.

[ESPImperium]

Id shure love to see what the rules actually say on the engine freeze and what they say for any improvements that can be made to the engine in terms of what parts you can replace and how you can replace them.

[kekekeke]

The problem is due to Renault doing absolutely nothing with their engines since the freeze. As Flav put it in an interview, others have made some improvements/developments within the regulations but Renault has not and that has "buggered" them!

Edit - found a link http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/07/30/f ... velopment/

The Ferrari engine is a better unit.

I believe that the process for a manufacturer to apply for an engine component design change "for reliability" involves not only the FIA approving the change but also their fellow competitors approving the change. This article makes it clear that all the other teams know what modifications their peers are applying for and why. The other teams can also say no to the request.

Here is a quote from another forum by an f1 insider

"Take this as a rumour, though this is sourced from extremely good and well-placed sources.

There's been a lot of talk recently about engine upgrades being sneaked through under the guise of reliability. Ferrari have actually got the most number of updates through the FIA's approval process, Renault the least.

More worryingly, however, Ferrari managed to get an update through the FIA that the majority of other teams opposed (the only consenting votes coming from its customers) and Renault when very recently proposing a very similar update had it refused by the FIA.

Now, I admire Ferrari and the team's passion and heritage and I don't lay the blame on them (any team in such a situation would most likely try to get maximum advantage) but this is one of the few instances that I've had very reliable evidence pointing to clear FIA favouritism."

[guy_smiley]

This is the full interview with Mark Webber from ITV.

Yeah, we've struggled for grip most of the weekend to be honest. Obviously we know there is a.., both Sebastians are obviously driving pretty well here plus they're setting the car a little bit differently, not massively but we know that they have a, um, stronger engine but probably not by the tune that they're ahead of us so, um, the engine's probably worth 4/10ths or so, but the rest is we need to do a better job. They've done a better job than us this weekend, in particular them, but not just them but a lot of other teams. You see where Renault are as well, and it's difficult day for them and so new venues and you know we had pace that we had for quite a few races ago, so it's getting frustrating.

I was watching SPEEDTV. Mark said to Peter Windsor that they (Red Bull) knew exactly where 60% of the gap was coming from: the Ferrari engine. Then Mark said they decreased their rear wing to make up for it. Finally, to agree with you ITV people, Mark told Peter it was worth about 4/10th's, but that 4/10th's news is a few weeks old--Renault realeased that number to the press before the Hungarian GP...

[bar555]

Rersonally, i feel that theres something else that the STR-Ferarri has over the RBR-Renault.

I feel that the STR3 has had rear diffuser development, diffrent rear suspension layout and a diffrent gearbox over the RBR-Renault.

STR3's diffuser seems to me quite the same to RB4

[modbaraban]

I've just read an interesting view on what may happen on one (non-english) f1 website.

The scenario maight be: STR->Honda+Sato, RBR->Ferrari

What do you think?

[pipex]

I think that there are a lot of variables to consider. If Honda will supply the entire package (Engine + KERS) i think that STR would be interested, looking at the rumours that have been floating around regarding the quality of the system developed by Honda. If RBR are going to use Ferrari engines, then they maybe will use the entire Ferrari engine + Magneti Marelli KERS. I think i have read that Renault will use the same, or a similar system, because i don't think that they are going to develop a new system, considering the cost cutting measures in place. In any case, i don't think that staying with Renault in the KERS era would be a good idea.
But i don't know the probability of that happening. And there is the question if the entire Honda car is crap or its only the chassis...
Maybe its just a rumour... but a lot of these have some (or a little) level of truth.

Best regards

[Conceptual]

When does Vettel test the RBR in Jerez?

[ESPImperium]

Rersonally, i feel that theres something else that the STR-Ferarri has over the RBR-Renault.

I feel that the STR3 has had rear diffuser development, diffrent rear suspension layout and a diffrent gearbox over the RBR-Renault.

STR3's diffuser seems to me quite the same to RB4

What i was meaning is that the STR2 didnt get the diffuser development that the RB3 got, i think the STR2B got a diffuser update for the start of the season, but when the STR3 came allong the STR3 got, altho simmilar, a better diffuser suited to it and the Ferarri engine over the RBR4 and the Renault engine.

Its my hunch, and im sticking to it, i may be wrong...

But on the STR getting Honda power for 2009, im not shure... Sato is a good driver, with Honda backing, but id much prefer to see someone younger there... But if the Honda powerplant is any decent and the the Honda Chassis just being a pice of crap, id like to see.

I can see Red Bull taking the Ferarris back as they have a preformance advantage, altho they have a small percentage of relyability problems and larger cooling requirements, but id take that for the extra BHP and performance.

Its all in the melting pot already for 2009, and we have the rest of a already intresting 2008 to go!!!

[Conceptual]

STR3+Ferrari > RB4+Renault

Anyone think that STR may just stay on the Red Bull payroll with their obvious improvements in the last few months? Or will they get sniped like Super Aguri did when they started stomping Honda?

After today, I sincerely hope that Vettel ends up with a competitive car for next season.

It is GREAT to see the under-dogs win!

Chris

[mx_tifoso]

F1Technical- Renault engine is our handicap - Mateschitz

Dietrich Mateschitz:
Since a couple of months we have one of the best chassis' in Formula 1. But we also have a handicap, which is the Renault engine. Toro Rosso doesn't have that problem with Ferrari engines. That is the reason why Toro Rosso's combination is faster than Red Bull Racing."

[Conceptual]

F1Technical- Renault engine is our handicap - Mateschitz

Dietrich Mateschitz:
Since a couple of months we have one of the best chassis' in Formula 1. But we also have a handicap, which is the Renault engine. Toro Rosso doesn't have that problem with Ferrari engines. That is the reason why Toro Rosso's combination is faster than Red Bull Racing."

Is anyone in a position to ask him directly if there is any talk of swapping these relationships? Or could RBR simply become another Ferrari engine user?

[ESPImperium]

I think that Red Bull will use the Feraris next year, with the Magnetti Marenelli KERS System.

STR i feel could either end up with Honda power or BMW power as a outsider, Red Bull will want to be compeditive from the off next year, STR will also want good power next year, hence why i feel that BMW coule provide power for them next year. I also feel that Mercedies could also want a driver racing next year, thus making me wonder could Garry Paffet be in a line for a STR drive next year... May be a concept, but i feel that a STR with Honda power and KERS could be on the cards with Sato and either Bourdais or Buemi being in the STR seats for next year.