Ferrari all set to showcase 599 Hybrid and GTO

[xpensive]

Why anyone wants a hybrid 670 Hp car, which already consumes 17 liters of gas per 100 km, is completely beyond me.

That's like people mixing their Gin with Diet Schweppes to limit the energy-intake, same stupidity but this is what goes when people can't do the math for themselves. When you examine the energy-xchange, an engineer will easily find that the whole hybrid-thing is simply a marketing-gimmick, just like if you compare the 400 kJ per lap of last years KERS-farce with the 34 200 kJ energy-content in one liter of gasoline.

[autogyro]

Why anyone wants a hybrid 670 Hp car, which already consumes 17 liters of gas per 100 km, is completely beyond me.

That's like people mixing their Gin with Diet Schweppes to limit the energy-intake, same stupidity but this is what goes when people can't do the math for themselves. When you examine the energy-xchange, an engineer will easily find that the whole hybrid-thing is simply a marketing-gimmick, just like if you compare the 400 kJ per lap of last years KERS-farce with the 34 200 kJ energy-content in one liter of gasoline.

Sorry you feel that way xpensive and a shame because you are wrong.
The limits to hybrid and kers technology is only because of the delays forced by the vested established technologies nothing else.
Nothing you can say changes the fact that Ferrari ARE having to offer hybrid versions of ALL their road cars simply to meet the regulations for road use and these regulations will continue to become stricter in regard to CO2 output and emissions. The writing is well and truely on the wall, ignore it and all you will do is confine your ideas to history.

[xpensive]

First of all, kindly xplain these "regulations", which would force sportscar manufacturers to employ hybrids?

I try to base my opinions on well documented facts like in this case energy-content and KERS efficiency.

You are welcome to challenge these opinions, but just telling someone he's "wrong" is simply not viable as an argument.

[autogyro]

First of all, kindly xplain these "regulations", which would force sportscar manufacturers to employ hybrids?

I try to base my opinions on well documented facts like in this case energy-content and KERS efficiency.

You are welcome to challenge these opinions, but just telling someone he's "wrong" is simply not viable as an argument.

Sorry xpensive but if Ferrari is converting ALL of its road car fleet to hybrid to meet vehicle operating reguirements and regulation throughout the world, then the gist of your argument against hybrids is simply wrong. This is a thread about the Ferrari 599 hybrid after all.

[xpensive]

First of all, kindly xplain these "regulations", which would force sportscar manufacturers to employ hybrids?

I try to base my opinions on well documented facts like in this case energy-content and KERS efficiency.

You are welcome to challenge these opinions, but just telling someone he's "wrong" is simply not viable as an argument.

Sorry xpensive but if Ferrari is converting ALL of its road car fleet to hybrid to meet vehicle operating reguirements and regulation throughout the world, then the gist of your argument against hybrids is simply wrong. This is a thread about the Ferrari 599 hybrid after all.

What kind of logic is that anyway, if Ferrari does hybrids it must be right, why we need no math to discuss it?

[autogyro]

Nothing else need be said I think.
Readers will make up their own minds.

[xpensive]

Why anyone would want a hybrid 670 Hp car, which already consumes 17 liters of gas per 100 km, is completely beyond me. If fuel consumption is a problem, perhaps this is not the car for you to begin with?

That's like people mixing their Gin with Diet Schweppes to limit the energy-intake, same stupidity but this is perhaps what happens when people can't do the math for themselves. And when you xamine the energy-xchange, you will easily find that the whole kinetic energy recovery-thing is simply a marketing-gimmick. If you take a 1300 kg car from 100 km/h to zero, that's no more than 500 kJ even if you can do all your braking with the recovery system, which of course you can't.
At the same time, there's a 34 200 kJ energy-content in one liter of gasoline.

More efficient engines, lighter cars and better aerodynamics would mean helluva lot more to the fuel consumption.

[lkocev]

I agree with you xpensive that it seems stupid to want a hybrid car that is already not so great on fuel economy. Like 670hp isn't enough already?

On the otherhand, its not so bad mixing gin with diet schweppes. Some people want to enjoy that taste but with reduced calorie uptake, doesn't seem unreasonable to me scince I have been quite diciplined about my calorie uptake recently. I guess if something is available, and it tickles your fancy, then what is the problem with getting or using it?

I like BMW's idea of alternator operation where it is engaded under braking and coasting. Seems like a more sensible way to increase efficiency, rather than adding a whole heap of weight from dedicated alternator/generators and energy storage in the form of a battery. Your right, these systems don't come anywhere near the energy density of gasoline.

I don't see a reason why sportscars can't be reasonably economic, and completley agree that if Ferrari want to improve the efficiency of their cars, making them hybrid is perhaps not the right way to go. You are absoloutly right that engines optimised to normal driving conditions rather than competition conditions would help. Better aerodynamics would definetly help, and I think reducing weight is the biggest area they can improve in.

Once they do those things first, then they should think about offering KERS. Is that kind of along the lines of what you were thinking xpensive?

[xpensive]

You're my man Ikocev, in every area but that Diet Schweppes, you be saving far more calories by using a little less Gin, which was my point.

[autogyro]

I don't see a reason why sportscars can't be reasonably economic, and completley agree that if Ferrari want to improve the efficiency of their cars, making them hybrid is perhaps not the right way to go. You are absoloutly right that engines optimised to normal driving conditions rather than competition conditions would help. Better aerodynamics would definetly help, and I think reducing weight is the biggest area they can improve in.

If Ferrari are not already doing all of the above then they should give up making cars and let you do it for them.
Hybrid Ferraris are going to be the norm, no matter what the technical debate. It is the ONLY way that gas guzzling cars of this type stand any chance whatsoever of meeting world vehicle legislation regarding CO2 emissions period.

The problem Ferrari has, is that all of its hybrid technology is heavy inefficient and results in complex and energy sapping power trains that are in addition to already inefficient systems for fuel use.
It is not the potential of newer generation hybrid and kers systems to be energy efficient, it is the hopeless 'motor head' fuel wasting mind set that continues to believe that there is any sensible future for such vehicles.
They are living in cloud cuckoo land.

[autogyro]

Oh and when did any of this have anything whatsoever to do with the energy density of gasolene.
In areas of the world that use less per mile we call it petrol by the way.

[Ciro Pabón]

autogyro, xpensive, please, interchange the opinions you have about each other by PM.

[xpensive]

Oh and when did any of this have anything whatsoever to do with the energy density of gasolene.
In areas of the world that use less per mile we call it petrol by the way.

The energy content of gasoline is pretty useful in order to compare what can be gained from kinetic energy recovery.
I know by now that math is not your forte, but my xample above shows that even if you can recover 100% of the kinetic energy when braking from 100 km/h to 0 with a 1300 kg car, you have to do it 69 times in order to equal the energy content of one liter of gasoline.

Think about it.

[autogyro]

Oh and when did any of this have anything whatsoever to do with the energy density of gasolene.
In areas of the world that use less per mile we call it petrol by the way.

The energy content of gasoline is pretty useful in order to compare what can be gained from kinetic energy recovery.
I know by now that math is not your forte, but my xample above shows that even if you can recover 100% of the kinetic energy when braking from 100 km/h to 0 with a 1300 kg car, you have to do it 69 times in order to equal the energy content of one liter of gasoline.

Think about it.

I have and you are absolutely correct, which means what exactly?

Oh sorry I forgot
Think about it.

[pipex]

xpensive, i have a question... the energy density you have calculated considers the fact that only a minimal portion of that energy remains useful after you passed it through the engine due to losses, etc... in the case of the hybrid system I suppose that its efficiency is far better. Maybe the boost button thing is crap to reduce the fuel usage, but the fact that in normal hybrids the ICE can be modified to work in a better operating region maybe this is what provides a real amount of savings, instead of only thinking in terms of energy storage.