2025 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, April 18-20

[Seanspeed]

Marko just said that McLaren must have bluffed in FP3. The only explanation for this result is that they were on super low fuel already.

Please stop listening to what Marko says. The guy probably sets out after sessions to go find journalists to give his hot takes to.

But he's right. How do you go from setting a 27,4 in FP3 to a 27,4 in Quali? Temps were much lower and presumably you leave a bit on the table in practice. It's very hard to explain.

Mclaren have the widest working of all cars by far. Like, it's not even close. They're literally the fastest car in every single track, weather, situation, etc.

Basically, good laptimes come to the Mclaren very easily. And it seems like the overall conditions in Q3 vs FP3 were not as conducive to overall laptime improvements as we usually get for whatever reason.

Mclaren has zero reason to bluff or do glory runs. Trying to explain why they would do such a thing requires a far more puzzling potential answer than why Q3 conditions simply weren't as fast as expected.

[Cs98]

Please stop listening to what Marko says. The guy probably sets out after sessions to go find journalists to give his hot takes to.

But he's right. How do you go from setting a 27,4 in FP3 to a 27,4 in Quali? Temps were much lower and presumably you leave a bit on the table in practice. It's very hard to explain.

Mclaren have the widest working of all cars by far. Like, it's not even close. They're literally the fastest car in every single track, weather, situation, etc.

Basically, good laptimes come to the Mclaren very easily. And it seems like the overall conditions in Q3 vs FP3 were not as conducive to overall laptime improvements as we usually get for whatever reason.

Mclaren has zero reason to bluff or do glory runs. Trying to explain why they would do such a thing requires a far more puzzling potential answer than why Q3 conditions simply weren't as fast as expected.

Conditions were conducive to good lap times for everyone else. I doubt they were running 30 kgs of fuel with low engine modes and posted a 27,4 on a 50 degree track, and then come quali when they drain the fuel and turn up the power they gain nothing. In all likelihood they were already running pretty much quali settings in FP3 and they are just very good in hot temps.

[Matt2725]

But he's right. How do you go from setting a 27,4 in FP3 to a 27,4 in Quali? Temps were much lower and presumably you leave a bit on the table in practice. It's very hard to explain.

Mclaren have the widest working of all cars by far. Like, it's not even close. They're literally the fastest car in every single track, weather, situation, etc.

Basically, good laptimes come to the Mclaren very easily. And it seems like the overall conditions in Q3 vs FP3 were not as conducive to overall laptime improvements as we usually get for whatever reason.

Mclaren has zero reason to bluff or do glory runs. Trying to explain why they would do such a thing requires a far more puzzling potential answer than why Q3 conditions simply weren't as fast as expected.

Conditions were conducive to good lap times for everyone else. I doubt they were running 30 kgs of fuel with low engine modes and posted a 27,4 on a 50 degree track, and then come quali when they drain the fuel and turn up the power they gain nothing. In all likelihood they were already running pretty much quali settings in FP3 and they are just very good in hot temps.

Pretty much, that car works in all temps. Assuming nobody can come up with a solution or figure out the secret sauce, McLaren need to be begging for a hot summer. There seems to be a point (around 35C track temp) where the performance to the chasing pack starts to diminish quickly.

[langedweil]

For what it's worth, another ghost video.
Gotta go to YT though yourself ...

If it's correct it's the tow for S1 bit especially T27 ...

[AR3-GP]

Mclaren have the widest working of all cars by far. Like, it's not even close. They're literally the fastest car in every single track, weather, situation, etc.

Basically, good laptimes come to the Mclaren very easily. And it seems like the overall conditions in Q3 vs FP3 were not as conducive to overall laptime improvements as we usually get for whatever reason.

Mclaren has zero reason to bluff or do glory runs. Trying to explain why they would do such a thing requires a far more puzzling potential answer than why Q3 conditions simply weren't as fast as expected.

Conditions were conducive to good lap times for everyone else. I doubt they were running 30 kgs of fuel with low engine modes and posted a 27,4 on a 50 degree track, and then come quali when they drain the fuel and turn up the power they gain nothing. In all likelihood they were already running pretty much quali settings in FP3 and they are just very good in hot temps.

Pretty much, that car works in all temps. Assuming nobody can come up with a solution or figure out the secret sauce, McLaren need to be begging for a hot summer. There seems to be a point (around 35C track temp) where the performance to the chasing pack starts to diminish quickly.

I'm not convinced that this is the correct explanation. As CS98 pointed out, if Mclaren were not doing low fuel, max engine power runs in FP3 ( i don't see why they would have been), then there is a quantifiable laptime improvement that should have come from removing fuel and increasing the engine power even if track temperature didn't change. F = ma. Less mass, more power should lead to higher accelerations everywhere.

So how can you explain this discrepancy? I don't think Mclaren was glory running (although running low fuel and high engine mode does not mean you are glory running as it could simply be strategic data collection). So to me it indicates that something has gone "wrong" with the Mclaren maybe in the car or driver and they didn't go as fast as they anticipated. Perhaps the first sign of development/correlation trouble or Piastri didn't do a very good lap after all (which he more or less was suggesting in the post-qualy interview before he diverted into copium mode saying it was the best he could do).

He just bleeds time from sector 2 onwards compared to FP3 of Norris. It also looks like he lacked commitment in S1 high speed corners compared to Verstappen when you compre throttle trace. We know that Mclaren has more downforce than the Red Bull so Piastri had no business lifting out of the corners earlier than Verstappen but as we know, Verstappen is incredible in high speed corners so even in a car with less potential, he can still match up against a driver in quicker car who can't exploit more downforce in the high speed because they lack the skill/commitment to do so.




I really do think Red Bull was only the third fastest car in this qualifying, behind Mclaren and Mercedes and that this has been the case since the start of the year. It's a little sad that people can't get over their agendas to see what we are witnessing. Verstappen is doing incredible things which people don't want to believe for "reasons". Mercedes is the 2nd fastest car. Mclaren 1st. Russell is missing a bit even if some don't want to admit it. Russell is not as good in the wet as Max (Australia race gap is basically down to this. In qualy there was nothing between them. Already you could see Russell getting outpaced by Hamilton in the intermediate/wet conditions in Silverstone last year, and Russell made a meal of the intermediate stints in Canada). Merc and Mclaren were faster in China. Merc (tire prep) and Mclaren (mistakes) bottled qualy in Japan. We know what happened in Bahrain...Here both Toto Wolff and Russell said they should have been on pole but that Russell missed around 2 tenths which was attainable. Piastri clearly didn't maximize that Mclaren in S1, perhaps scared by the crash of his teammate earlier in the session. That Mclaren only improve by 2 tenths compared to FP3 shows how much was left on the table. Mclaren and Mercedes being ahead is consistent with the rest of the year. Max has 2 poles and a win in what really is the 3rd fastest car all season. The comparisons to late 90s Schumacher are apt. Most paddock insiders know it. Toto Wolff knows it. Niki Lauda knew it (RIP). I made a comment in Mercedes thread on this point which people didn't understand because they didn't want to believe that's what senior, well educated people at Mercedes really think.

[ringo]

It can be as simple as tyre prep was wrong for Mclaren. Just like how mercedes have screwed their tyre temps many times in the past and didn't get the full potential out of the car.

[AR3-GP]

On the point of tire preparation, it is also an asset of the driver and not something to blame on the team. While Russell and Mercedes keep messing up and then blaming a vague tire prep strategy and Russell saying Verstappen only did better because of X,Y,Z excuses (deflecting from the driver), Tsunoda made an interesting comment in his interview before the weekend (I think Tsunoda talks too much and Red Bull shouldn't let him talk so openly, nevertheless now that he talked, we start to learn some secrets of the genius)

and he gave an example of how it allows Verstappen to respond and adapt.

“He can feel more than myself in that car,” said Tsunoda of Verstappen, “like how the tyre temp looks like, you know, get out from the garage.

“And in qualifying, this is a good example, the track temps going low, lower and lower throughout the qualifying, and he adjusted, from Q1 to Q3. When the temperature is going lower, he adjusted himself, and warm-up, how he should warm-up, how he should put the pressure into the tyres, to increase the lap time, or increase the pace of the out-lap, or whatever.

“But inside [the car] for me, I didn’t feel it that way. I didn’t be able to feel that.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/damon-hil ... -bull-plan

There's only so much that the engineers can tell you how to do, but the driver has to figure out the last part, otherwise Tsunoda would not struggle. Why others are droning about failed tire prep and Verstappen is always getting the most out of everything. These are some of the pieces of the puzzle.

[ringo]

Conditions were conducive to good lap times for everyone else. I doubt they were running 30 kgs of fuel with low engine modes and posted a 27,4 on a 50 degree track, and then come quali when they drain the fuel and turn up the power they gain nothing. In all likelihood they were already running pretty much quali settings in FP3 and they are just very good in hot temps.

Pretty much, that car works in all temps. Assuming nobody can come up with a solution or figure out the secret sauce, McLaren need to be begging for a hot summer. There seems to be a point (around 35C track temp) where the performance to the chasing pack starts to diminish quickly.

I'm not convinced that this is the correct explanation. As CS98 pointed out, if Mclaren were not doing low fuel, max engine power runs in FP3 ( i don't see why they would have been), then there is a quantifiable laptime improvement that should have come from removing fuel and increasing the engine power even if track temperature didn't change. F = ma. Less mass, more power should lead to higher accelerations everywhere.

So how can you explain this discrepancy? I don't think Mclaren was glory running (although running low fuel and high engine mode does not mean you are glory running as it could simply be strategic data collection). So to me it indicates that something has gone "wrong" with the Mclaren maybe in the car or driver and they didn't go as fast as they anticipated. Perhaps the first sign of development/correlation trouble or Piastri didn't do a very good lap after all (which he more or less was suggesting in the post-qualy interview before he diverted into copium mode saying it was the best he could do).

He just bleeds time from sector 2 onwards compared to FP3 of Norris. It also looks like he lacked commitment in S1 high speed corners compared to Verstappen when you compre throttle trace. We know that Mclaren has more downforce than the Red Bull so Piastri had no business lifting out of the corners earlier than Verstappen but as we know, Verstappen is incredible in high speed corners so even in a car with less potential, he can still match up against a driver in quicker car who can't exploit more downforce in the high speed because they lack the skill/commitment to do so.

https://i.postimg.cc/xjBMszQb/image.png
https://i.postimg.cc/65068kM5/image.png

I really do think Red Bull was only the third fastest car in this qualifying, behind Mclaren and Mercedes and that this has been the case since the start of the year. It's a little sad that people can't get over their agendas to see what we are witnessing. Verstappen is doing incredible things which people don't want to believe for "reasons". Mercedes is the 2nd fastest car. Mclaren 1st. Russell is missing a bit even if some don't want to admit it. Russell is not as good in the wet as Max (Australia race gap is basically down to this. In qualy there was nothing between them. Already you could see Russell getting outpaced by Hamilton in the intermediate/wet conditions in Silverstone last year, and Russell made a meal of the intermediate stints in Canada). Merc and Mclaren were faster in China. Merc (tire prep) and Mclaren (mistakes) bottled qualy in Japan. We know what happened in Bahrain...Here both Toto Wolff and Russell said they should have been on pole but that Russell missed around 2 tenths which was attainable. Piastri clearly didn't maximize that Mclaren in S1, perhaps scared by the crash of his teammate earlier in the session. That Mclaren only improve by 2 tenths compared to FP3 shows how much was left on the table. Mclaren and Mercedes being ahead is consistent with the rest of the year. Max has 2 poles and a win in what really is the 3rd fastest car all season. The comparisons to late 90s Schumacher are apt. Most paddock insiders know it. Toto Wolff knows it. Niki Lauda knew it (RIP). I made a comment in Mercedes thread on this point which people didn't understand because they didn't want to believe that's what senior, well educated people at Mercedes really think.

Looking on the graphs, you may be guilty of what you are accusing others of.
The Redbull has the straight line speed advantage here, and has more peak cornering speeds.
It also has better traction out of the corners. Also Max is able to brake deeper into the corners. Piastri more sharply releasing the throttle. Max basically had more grip going in and out of the corners.
RB21 is the best car here in this particular Q3 just by looking on the traces.
Drivers can only use what's available, and it's clear Max had more grip available to him, be it better tyre temps or engine calibration.
In Suzuka it was similar in Q3, better traction and more heavy on throttle without loss of traction.
RB21 still has the Q3 trick its predecessors had.

[ringo]

On the point of tire preparation, it is also an asset of the driver and not something to blame on the team. While Russell and Mercedes keep messing up and then blaming a vague tire prep strategy and Russell saying Verstappen only did better because of X,Y,Z excuses (deflecting from the driver), Tsunoda made an interesting comment in his interview before the weekend (I think Tsunoda talks too much and Red Bull shouldn't let him talk so openly, nevertheless now that he talked, we start to learn some secrets of the genius)

and he gave an example of how it allows Verstappen to respond and adapt.

“He can feel more than myself in that car,” said Tsunoda of Verstappen, “like how the tyre temp looks like, you know, get out from the garage.

“And in qualifying, this is a good example, the track temps going low, lower and lower throughout the qualifying, and he adjusted, from Q1 to Q3. When the temperature is going lower, he adjusted himself, and warm-up, how he should warm-up, how he should put the pressure into the tyres, to increase the lap time, or increase the pace of the out-lap, or whatever.

“But inside [the car] for me, I didn’t feel it that way. I didn’t be able to feel that.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/damon-hil ... -bull-plan

There's only so much that the engineers can tell you how to do, but the driver has to figure out the last part, otherwise Tsunoda would not struggle. Why others are droning about failed tire prep and Verstappen is always getting the most out of everything. These are some of the pieces of the puzzle.

Maybe the engineers tell the #1 and not the #2?

[napoleon1981]

Pretty much, that car works in all temps. Assuming nobody can come up with a solution or figure out the secret sauce, McLaren need to be begging for a hot summer. There seems to be a point (around 35C track temp) where the performance to the chasing pack starts to diminish quickly.

I'm not convinced that this is the correct explanation. As CS98 pointed out, if Mclaren were not doing low fuel, max engine power runs in FP3 ( i don't see why they would have been), then there is a quantifiable laptime improvement that should have come from removing fuel and increasing the engine power even if track temperature didn't change. F = ma. Less mass, more power should lead to higher accelerations everywhere.

So how can you explain this discrepancy? I don't think Mclaren was glory running (although running low fuel and high engine mode does not mean you are glory running as it could simply be strategic data collection). So to me it indicates that something has gone "wrong" with the Mclaren maybe in the car or driver and they didn't go as fast as they anticipated. Perhaps the first sign of development/correlation trouble or Piastri didn't do a very good lap after all (which he more or less was suggesting in the post-qualy interview before he diverted into copium mode saying it was the best he could do).

He just bleeds time from sector 2 onwards compared to FP3 of Norris. It also looks like he lacked commitment in S1 high speed corners compared to Verstappen when you compre throttle trace. We know that Mclaren has more downforce than the Red Bull so Piastri had no business lifting out of the corners earlier than Verstappen but as we know, Verstappen is incredible in high speed corners so even in a car with less potential, he can still match up against a driver in quicker car who can't exploit more downforce in the high speed because they lack the skill/commitment to do so.

https://i.postimg.cc/xjBMszQb/image.png
https://i.postimg.cc/65068kM5/image.png

I really do think Red Bull was only the third fastest car in this qualifying, behind Mclaren and Mercedes and that this has been the case since the start of the year. It's a little sad that people can't get over their agendas to see what we are witnessing. Verstappen is doing incredible things which people don't want to believe for "reasons". Mercedes is the 2nd fastest car. Mclaren 1st. Russell is missing a bit even if some don't want to admit it. Russell is not as good in the wet as Max (Australia race gap is basically down to this. In qualy there was nothing between them. Already you could see Russell getting outpaced by Hamilton in the intermediate/wet conditions in Silverstone last year, and Russell made a meal of the intermediate stints in Canada). Merc and Mclaren were faster in China. Merc (tire prep) and Mclaren (mistakes) bottled qualy in Japan. We know what happened in Bahrain...Here both Toto Wolff and Russell said they should have been on pole but that Russell missed around 2 tenths which was attainable. Piastri clearly didn't maximize that Mclaren in S1, perhaps scared by the crash of his teammate earlier in the session. That Mclaren only improve by 2 tenths compared to FP3 shows how much was left on the table. Mclaren and Mercedes being ahead is consistent with the rest of the year. Max has 2 poles and a win in what really is the 3rd fastest car all season. The comparisons to late 90s Schumacher are apt. Most paddock insiders know it. Toto Wolff knows it. Niki Lauda knew it (RIP). I made a comment in Mercedes thread on this point which people didn't understand because they didn't want to believe that's what senior, well educated people at Mercedes really think.

Looking on the graphs, you may be guilty of what you are accusing others of.
The Redbull has the straight line speed advantage here, and has more peak cornering speeds.
It also has better traction out of the corners. Also Max is able to brake deeper into the corners. Piastri more sharply releasing the throttle. Max basically had more grip going in and out of the corners.
RB21 is the best car here in this particular Q3 just by looking on the traces.
Drivers can only use what's available, and it's clear Max had more grip available to him, be it better tyre temps or engine calibration.
In Suzuka it was similar in Q3, better traction and more heavy on throttle without loss of traction.
RB21 still has the Q3 trick its predecessors had.

Max is a better driver, a pro at stabilizing the aerodynamic platform and maximizing the grip circle. Thats why it looks like in the traces he has more grip available. Yuki is in the same car, and lacks a ton of grip by traces and the story you are trying to spin here.

[ringo]

Ok so where were the super powers last race weekend?

[Chuckjr]

The Redbull has the straight line speed advantage here, and has more peak cornering speeds.
It also has better traction out of the corners. Also Max is able to brake deeper into the corners. Piastri more sharply releasing the throttle. Max basically had more grip going in and out of the corners.
RB21 is the best car here in this particular Q3 just by looking on the traces.
Drivers can only use what's available, and it's clear Max had more grip available to him, be it better tyre temps or engine calibration.
In Suzuka it was similar in Q3, better traction and more heavy on throttle without loss of traction.
RB21 still has the Q3 trick its predecessors had.

Finally we agree on something!

[DGP123]

The Redbull has the straight line speed advantage here, and has more peak cornering speeds.
It also has better traction out of the corners. Also Max is able to brake deeper into the corners. Piastri more sharply releasing the throttle. Max basically had more grip going in and out of the corners.
RB21 is the best car here in this particular Q3 just by looking on the traces.
Drivers can only use what's available, and it's clear Max had more grip available to him, be it better tyre temps or engine calibration.
In Suzuka it was similar in Q3, better traction and more heavy on throttle without loss of traction.
RB21 still has the Q3 trick its predecessors had.

Finally we agree on something!

it’s a very good car. Max is great, but this stuff about him doing monster things with inferior machinery is nonsense on a Saturday. Sunday a different story.

[Chuckjr]

Outstanding video of quali 3 ghosting Max and Oscar. Really shows how the RB loses very little to nothing on the straights. I was surprised to see that.

[search]

Tire situation is more or less the same for everyone. Only Williams did some kind of a long run on hards, but it looked like the best race tire to me.