Alonso technical level

[Giblet]

ISLAMATRON, I've never seen you argue so hard against something that is so obviously true, Alonso being a great technical driver that engineers think is great to work with.

Everything you have presented does nothing to prove your argument, it just makes it look like you hate Alonso more and more. Your knowledge and bias are not increasing at the same rate.

What tires he had, who his teammate was, who his team was, or who his engineers were has no bearing on the fact that Alonso is very highly rated technical driver, by the people who work with him, have worked with him, and who have just kicked out Kimi to start working with him.

I'm a pretty decent guitar player, but give me a --- guitar with dead strings, buzzy frets, and horrible action on the neck, I will sound pretty bad, but hand that guitar to a lesser player than I, and I will sound better. This is why external factors play NO part on his ability to set up a car. A talent, strength, educated skill, whatever. Everything you talk about are external factors. His skill is to take WHATEVER external factors exists, and make the best of it.

What exactly are you trying to say? Since you are wrong about his ability, and the only one who seems to think so, it would be curious to see why. See my reasons above why his skill has nothing to do with Michelins or anything other arguments you drudge up.

[ISLAMATRON]

Given that Alonso had a rather high opinion of his technical skills in 2007 ("I bring six tenths", "I do all the set up", et al) I think we can rather conclusively say that Alonso has an overinflated opinion of his technical skills and what he can do himself to improve a car.

I don't see where this thread goes now.

Giblet, This(above) is exactly what I am trying to say, only thing to add are that there are many people in and out of F1 who agree with Alonso(regarding his technical skills) and they may be wrong as well. We shall see when he goes up against Massa, hopefully Massa is given a proper chance by the team.

[Rod_in_Chile]

These people who have worked with him in F1 and highly rated his abilities unfortunately have much more credibility than the arguments presented against

[ISLAMATRON]

credibility means nothing to me, results speak volumes.

[donskar]

credibility means nothing to me, results speak volumes.

Ahhh, NOW I understand . . .

[imightbewrong]

credibility means nothing to me, results speak volumes.

Well, apparently 2 WDCs aren't results...

[ISLAMATRON]

credibility means nothing to me, results speak volumes.

Ahhh, NOW I understand . . .

no you dont

[Rod_in_Chile]

I get the feeling that if he decimates Massa on the way to WDC next year with everyone at Ferrari praising his car development abilities, then the RESULT will still not convince you

[ISLAMATRON]

That would definatly convince me... especially if he was exactly 6 tenths faster than a very fast Massa

[segedunum]

Everything you have presented does nothing to prove your argument, it just makes it look like you hate Alonso more and more.

With a statement like that, who can argue?

...Alonso is very highly rated technical driver, by the people who work with him, have worked with him

What does technical mean exactly? I'm sure he gives pretty decent feedback to his engineers and is very clear, but the premise here in making that statement is that Alonso is somehow better at that aspect than other drivers to the point where he improves the car in ways other drivers haven't. You're a long way off from making that case.

...and who have just kicked out Kimi to start working with him.

The amusing thing is, I can pull out a ton of quotes from Chris Dyer, Nikolas Tombazis and Andrea Stella that proves Raikkonen's worth as a technical driver, despite the efforts of some to drag down his 'communication' skills and despite Domenicali's strangely defensive comments about the commercial choices Ferrari have made. Lewis Hamilton didn't do too badly when Alonso grabbed his ball and wandered off with all of his set ups at the end of 2007.

Great. Thus far you have a bunch of engineer quotes and others doubtless have a few about other drivers. Does that prove that Alonso is a great technical driver (where 'great' can only mean relative to others)? Errrrrr, no.

This is why external factors play NO part on his ability to set up a car. A talent, strength, educated skill, whatever. Everything you talk about are external factors.

The problem is that all the factors that people cite in trying to argue that Alonso is great at setting up a car, and is better at it than some other drivers, are external factors and are usually down to him being given a good car - which is the same for any driver.

His skill is to take WHATEVER external factors exists, and make the best of it.

That's a great soundbite, but I' like to see you quantify it and make the case that he's better than other drivers around at it. I'm pretty sure that's what this article is trying to get at, and it's certainly something I'd like to see evidence of.

What exactly are you trying to say? Since you are wrong about his ability...

Again, what ability? A bunch of quotes from some engineers that you can get equally for drivers like Hamilton or Raikkonen doesn't prove a thing. Just because Alonso likes to strongly hint at the fact that he has a certain ability, it doesn't mean there is any evidence that he is actually better at it than some other drivers. The 'six tenths' comment was utterly ludicrous and was where Alonso ceased to be the great driver he could have been in my opinion.

[ESPImperium]

All im gonna add to this thread is that i think hat Alonso spends a large ammount of time in the car, twoce as much during pre season, and up to 20 to 30 laps more at a race weekend, meaning that he can undrestand the car more, thus making things clearer to engineers what he wants and how they could do it.

Thats my undrestanding of the situation. Everyone is entitled to their own understanding.

[ringo]

I don't think Alonso is much much greater than other drivers at setting up. I think he is good at it, and also makes good critical decisions.
Not to make excuses for him either, but i think with the previous knowledge of going to ferrari for 2010, Alonso didn't care much for "developing" the Renault. This gives an impression of lack of motivation or that he doesn't owe renault anything because of the relatively poor results in 08 and early 09.
He also seemed to whine a lot less, in the 2nd half, when the car crashes or has a mechanical issue. Remember the wheel cover thing in Hungary and the crash in Brazil? Alonso was a lot less vocal amd didn't seemed bothered by others crashing him out.
On the other hand if he was contracted to renault for 2 more years, maybe he would be working his ass off to develope the R29!
I won't be too critical of his abilities because the team is responsible for actual developement; but i won't overestimate him either, because in reality he hasn't really done anything this year to indicate that he or his team mates were benefiting from his input or that he was pushing the team to improve the car.

[Giblet]

I guess logic is out the window for some people.

You want your logic to be based in results?

Well then that is easy... the opinion of those who have worked with him in F1, being that Fernando's ability to evaluate new parts is rarely if ever wrong is a direct result of his skill to do so.

A result of that skill and opinion, is his choice of drives in just about any team, as the clear number 1, for a large salary, and he has got the dream drive he has always wanted.

He's already done it, proven himself, to the world of Formula 1, and is already reaping the rewards.

Obvious result is obvious.

[segedunum]

You want your logic to be based in results?

Errrrrr, yes.....including the last two seasons.

Well then that is easy... the opinion of those who have worked with him in F1...

As said, opinions are two a penny, and the same opinions you quote for Alonso that you think that proves his skills in this area are better than others can be wheeled out for at least two other drivers. You have nothing that proves anything I'm afraid. That is all you are basing this on....whatever 'this' happens to be.

A result of that skill and opinion, is his choice of drives in just about any team, as the clear number 1, for a large salary, and he has got the dream drive he has always wanted.

Yep, just like McLaren was his dream drive....... Domenicali's comments about what he fears might follow next season don't paint a picture of much of a dream. Just ask Fisi.

He's already done it, proven himself, to the world of Formula 1, and is already reaping the rewards.

Nice soundbite, but so have other drivers and he still needs to keep proving himself (as they all do), particularly after 2007.

You're wandering off on an Alonso love-in now though......which is all this thread has turned into.

[Richard]

All I'm gonna add to this thread is that I think hat Alonso spends a large amount of time in the car, twice as much during pre season, and up to 20 to 30 laps more at a race weekend.

I'm not sure about that, although enough data is published. Could you extract the relevant engine mileage from your spreadsheet? A listing of the driver distances sorted by mileages?