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I think the cascade wings are far less about producing downforce than they are about directing air flow around the front tires. Look at the lion's share of cascades, and you'll see they only really "cover" the front tires anyway. With that role being given to new end plates and angled slot-gap separators and other elements, the cascades can be removed to reduce drag.wesley123 wrote:Can anyone explain to me how an frownt wing without Cascades would create higher downforce than one with cascades? I'd always thought Cascades were downforce generating elements...
The cascades do generate downforce. But with that downforce comes a likely cost in the downforce being generated by the main elements of the front wing, and likely dirtier flow to the all important underbody and or rear wing of the car. They may be trading some front downforce for better performance from another part of the car. You have to look at the behavior of the total aero package on the car, not just one part.wesley123 wrote:Can anyone explain to me how an frownt wing without Cascades would create higher downforce than one with cascades? I'd always thought Cascades were downforce generating elements...
I have always thought the opposite. That the cascades generate vortices that improve the rest of the car at the expense of the FW's performance. Have we ever seen cascades on the rear wing?f300v10 wrote: The cascades .... likely dirtier flow to the all important underbody and or rear wing of the car. They may be trading some front downforce for better performance from another part of the car.
Indeed I understand that, however they seem to think that the front of the car generates more df without the cascades.f300v10 wrote:The cascades do generate downforce. But with that downforce comes a likely cost in the downforce being generated by the main elements of the front wing, and likely dirtier flow to the all important underbody and or rear wing of the car. They may be trading some front downforce for better performance from another part of the car. You have to look at the behavior of the total aero package on the car, not just one part.wesley123 wrote:Can anyone explain to me how an frownt wing without Cascades would create higher downforce than one with cascades? I'd always thought Cascades were downforce generating elements...
Cascades on the rear wing? I am sure that isnt allowedhardingfv32 wrote:I have always thought the opposite. That the cascades generate vortices that improve the rest of the car at the expense of the FW's performance. Have we ever seen cascades on the rear wing?f300v10 wrote: The cascades .... likely dirtier flow to the all important underbody and or rear wing of the car. They may be trading some front downforce for better performance from another part of the car.
Brian
Actually, now that you mention it...hardingfv32 wrote:[...]
Have we ever seen cascades on the rear wing?
I'm pretty sure the number of elements is limited in the area of the rear wing (main plane, drs plane, drs-stuff). There is an exception for a little space around the endplates (some teams run 5-element-profiles there), but the free bodywork 15cm rule only applies to under the main wing.bhallg2k wrote:Actually, now that you mention it...hardingfv32 wrote:[...]
Have we ever seen cascades on the rear wing?
Since the middle 15cm of the rear wing is "free," teams have used cascade-type wings at very high downforce circuits to counter the turbulence from the air box/roll hoop.
Absolutely rear wings had cascades, until the FIA banned it. Take for example the F2003. In 2003 the rear wing was limited to 3 elements. Ferrari ran with a 2 element main wing, with the third a full span cascade. As I recall from 2005 the rear wing has been limited to only 2 elements, and the cascades disappeared.hardingfv32 wrote:I have always thought the opposite. That the cascades generate vortices that improve the rest of the car at the expense of the FW's performance. Have we ever seen cascades on the rear wing?f300v10 wrote: The cascades .... likely dirtier flow to the all important underbody and or rear wing of the car. They may be trading some front downforce for better performance from another part of the car.
Brian
Acctuall yes they did it...amouzouris wrote:another thing i find really interesting is that ferrari never seems to run gurney flaps on their front wings...we've seen Red Bull do it...we've seen macca do it...but we've never seen ferrari do it...
Ferrari were one of the first to use the stacked design if I remember, with McLaren running a more traditional 3 element main wing. But by the end of the season McLaren was running the 2 element + bi-plane/cascade design.bhallg2k wrote:Those weren't cascades; they were full-on three-element wings, which were banned prior to 2004.
EDIT: But, I guess you could call them that. However, not all teams used the third element in that fashion.
