No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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Hail22
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No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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Just read this online:

http://www.rantsports.com/nascar/2013/0 ... cclestone/

I highly disagree with Ecclestone in him saying things will be fine...powerhouses like Ferrari, Mclaren and Mercedes could easily start pulling the collars of Bernie and the FIA and form walk outs from races like Bahrain (excluding Mclaren as one of their sponsors in from Bahrain).

Would this mean Formula 1 has an uncertain future? or more than likely its just press hyping things up in order to get people scared that their team may decide to leave due to the new formula in order to pressure the FIA to scrap the new V6 Turbo unit?
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

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Cam
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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There's a really nice in-depth article on the history of the Concorde at Autosport (subscriber only). It goes on to discuss the current situation and possible breakaways.

Is a breakaway feasible? Sure. The FIA has no control on major revenue income, so a breakaway is financially possible. You give up the naming rights (the FIA part), but who's going to spot that.

Does F1 need the FIA. No. Short answer. The FIA is a governing body, so there's no reason why you can't create your own. Maybe the FIA needs a competitor itself?

Will F1 breakaway? Why not. You could do it as part of a float! A new governing body, self determination, no more tsars. What's not to like about it.

The sport is in trouble. Something needs to give. The big four teams may not have control of the tv rights, but online streaming is here and its only a short time before everything is streamed. Who needs tv rights!

I would be very surprised if the big four aren't flexing their muscles right now. No contract, no problem. For them.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
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Hail22
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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Very interesting point of view cam, I like it and appreciate the time you've taken to share your thoughts mate...especially from a 3rd person viewpoint.

+1
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

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Cam
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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here's a small quote from that article:
"We were advised that the increased entry fees formed part of the Concorde Agreement negotiations," one team boss told this column, "yet they are outlined in the Sporting Regulations. So, no Concorde, no deal – and that's why we have not paid. I understand we are not alone."
source: http://plus.autosport.com/premium/featu ... -in-limbo/

So some teams are not paying their 2013 entry fees either.

Here's the difference between having the FIA and not having the FIA:
• FIA Formula 1 World Championship
• Formula 1 Championship

How much is it worth to have one word and an anagram added to your name?

I would guess that the teams will pay the entry fees for this year. It solves nothing trying to breakaway this year. 2014 could be a very different scenario. From a PR point of view, 2014 is the perfect platform to launch a whole new series, with all the free PR the controversy will have. You have new engines, a new F1, a new outlook, a new era in motorsport. I could turn this lemon into lemonade, so I'm confident smarter people than myself already have this strategy outlined, drawn up and initialed - just waiting.

The FIA is bluffing with a pair of 2's - and everyone knows it. All this talk of irrelevancy in F1 and it's the FIA that should be justifying it's existance. The big four will manoeuvre to protect their investment and future - with or without the FIA and Bernie. Who you going to turn up to watch - Bernie, or Ferrari?
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Hail22
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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Despite being a Ferrari fan...Even if there was a breakaway series I won't watch Formula 1 unless Mclaren, Mercedes and Williams are there call me a "old" or what have you...As Ferrari on its own would be quite boring, and dominated its wouldn't be the same without the tenacious and hungry teams like Mclaren and the old Silver arrows (Which I still hold hope their flame will soon return) etc etc.
Last edited by Richard on 29 Jan 2013, 10:27, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: Removed long quote
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

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Spankyham
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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IMO, what we are seeing is Luca's ability to muster and unify the key people/teams. Hence the meeting at Maranello. There will be an agreement, what we are seeing is the posturing to maximize the share of the pie.
Cam wrote:Is a breakaway feasible? Sure. The FIA has no control on major revenue income, so a breakaway is financially possible. You give up the naming rights (the FIA part), but who's going to spot that.
Agreed that a break-away is possible. But I also firmly believe it will never happen. It is purely a bargaining tool that is effective because of its viability.
Cam wrote:Does F1 need the FIA. No. Short answer. The FIA is a governing body, so there's no reason why you can't create your own. Maybe the FIA needs a competitor itself?
The FiA bring a massive HR infrastructure covering all parts of the globe. Marshalls, officials organizing administrators that do all the unseen jobs and tasks necessary to officiate and event. That would not be easy to replace - remember the problems the NFL had with their stand-in officials. The teams have none of this and, IMO, have no interest in creating and administering it.
Cam wrote:Will F1 breakaway? Why not. You could do it as part of a float! A new governing body, self determination, no more tsars. What's not to like about it.
IMO, there is not a snowflakes chance in hell of the teams forming a breakaway. The budgets, logistics co-ordination and administration involved in running one race is huge. The teams don't want to re-invent the wheel, they want to fix and improve what they have and to get more out of it.
Cam wrote:The sport is in trouble. Something needs to give. The big four teams may not have control of the tv rights, but online streaming is here and its only a short time before everything is streamed. Who needs tv rights!
On-line streaming is nowhere near a viable option. "Cable" represents a controllable media with a defined high income stream and a mature high standard product - HD and 3D are viable through the existing media outlets utilized by F1, streaming is popular on forums because it's mostly free - rest assured the teams are not interested in giving their product away.
Cam wrote:I would be very surprised if the big four aren't flexing their muscles right now. No contract, no problem. For them.
Agree completely, Luca has always known he held the aces, the other top line teams have realized that as well. Having said that, they will simply want to fix some of what they see as major problems, and to improve the product to make it more out of it.
"He was the fastest driver I ever saw - faster even than Fangio"
_______________________________- Mike Hawthorn on Alberto Ascari

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Spankyham
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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Hail22 wrote:Despite being a Ferrari fan...I won't watch Formula 1 unless Mclaren, Mercedes and Williams are there call me a "old" or what have you...but Ferrari on its own just isn't the same without the tenacious and hungry teams like Mclaren and the old Silver arrows (Which I still hold hope their flame will soon return).
Couldn't agree with you more on this point. It always surprises me when you read some posts wishing a front runner has some misfortune or problem to help their "man/team" win. Personally, I always hope that my teams major opposition have flawless races - and we beat them. Winning those races is very sweet indeed.
"He was the fastest driver I ever saw - faster even than Fangio"
_______________________________- Mike Hawthorn on Alberto Ascari

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WhiteBlue
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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I do not believe that the hang up is the FiA fee. The problem is cost limitation. The big four obviously are not interested to see the new regulations come into effect. The new F1 commission would be dominated by the mid field teams and their request for budget caps. The Maranello meeting was most likely about an alternative proposal about cost control.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Cam
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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Hail22 wrote:Despite being a Ferrari fan...I won't watch Formula 1 unless Mclaren, Mercedes and Williams are there call me a "old" or what have you...but Ferrari on its own just isn't the same without the tenacious and hungry teams like Mclaren and the old Silver arrows (Which I still hold hope their flame will soon return).
Apologies Hail22 - what I meant was do you turn up or watch an F1 race to see Bernie, or Ferrari and Mercedes and Red Bull...etc - the cars. It's the cars that people watch. No-one (mass fans) gives a rats who administers a sport or who negotiates the rights. Fans only turn on and turn up to barrack their team.

Bernie has the rights to an empty track. It's only when the cars arrive that the 'show' begins.
SpankHam wrote:The FiA bring a massive HR infrastructure covering all parts of the globe. Marshalls, officials organizing administrators that do all the unseen jobs and tasks necessary to officiate and event. That would not be easy to replace - remember the problems the NFL had with their stand-in officials. The teams have none of this and, IMO, have no interest in creating and administering it.
No, I don't recall the NFL troubles, but I take your word for it. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not possible or worthwhile.

The F1 teams don't currently own their own testicles. They have outside (with their own agendas) entities telling them when to show them, when to put them away, when to cough, etc. F1 needs it's own determination and if that means they get together and put in place their own infrastructure, so be it. No one is outsourcing anymore, so why would F1 be any different? The teams can easily afford to do it, once they remove the leeches. There's so much cash floating - they just can't get access to it. Heck, if they run the infrastructure like an F1 team, it'll be a breeze.
On-line streaming is nowhere near a viable option. "Cable" represents a controllable media with a defined high income stream and a mature high standard product....
Australia - Construction underway on 3.5 million premises over three years. It’s the start of a major national infrastructure project that will be rolled out over 10 years.
America - The researcher estimates that overall, North American fiber-optic growth is likely to be 6.4% in 2012, far outpacing cable's 2.2%. But cable still reigns, with a projected North American broadband subscriber base of 55.2 million by the end of this year against 8.1 million for fiber-optic providers. - so cable is king, but fibre is coming fast. Also, companies like Google Fibre are going it alone against the telcos to install the required hardware. It's the future and it's coming quickly.
HD and 3D are viable through the existing media outlets utilized by F1, streaming is popular on forums because it's mostly free - rest assured the teams are not interested in giving their product away.
No-one is suggesting they give it away for free, however the old rules of media are fast becoming redundant - along with thinking "we did it this way before, so it's going be like this forever'. There will always be a mix of free and user pays offerings. Mix this with the new smart devices we have, global roaming and on-demand, you have a power set of tools to generate copious amounts of cash. Plus, new technologies and coding methods have already seen great results to download and stream video content - this will only get better.

I have a big screen tv. Rarely watch it. My local tv offerings are just awful. I can already listen to any radio station online, download just about any movie online, I can watch F1 online, I can watch other sports on my iPhone - the TV, as you want it to be, is dead.

Saying something is too hard, or too big to change is what Bernie and the FIA are relying on. They want F1 Teams to suckle their respective teets for years to come - at a price, of course. It can be done and the sport will be better for it.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Cam
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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WhiteBlue wrote:I do not believe that the hang up is the FiA fee. The problem is cost limitation. The big four obviously are not interested to see the new regulations come into effect. The new F1 commission would be dominated by the mid field teams and their request for budget caps. The Maranello meeting was most likely about an alternative proposal about cost control.
At the end of the day we're all, including myself, speculating on what the big four are trying to do. They're meeting to discuss something and probably nothing out of the ordinary will happen. No breakaway, no cost caps, nothing to see here. It'd be a wasted opportunity to be contract free and not make the changes you wanted to do all along.......
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Hail22
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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Cam wrote:
Hail22 wrote:Despite being a Ferrari fan...I won't watch Formula 1 unless Mclaren, Mercedes and Williams are there call me a "old" or what have you...but Ferrari on its own just isn't the same without the tenacious and hungry teams like Mclaren and the old Silver arrows (Which I still hold hope their flame will soon return).
Apologies Hail22 - what I meant was do you turn up or watch an F1 race to see Bernie, or Ferrari and Mercedes and Red Bull...etc - the cars. It's the cars that people watch. No-one (mass fans) gives a rats who administers a sport or who negotiates the rights. Fans only turn on and turn up to barrack their team.

Bernie has the rights to an empty track. It's only when the cars arrive that the 'show' begins.
Naturally I only turn up for the teams, as much as that may sound corny I like to see Mclaren and co actually win races, if they have a better car than Ferrari then so be it and vice versa or any other team for that matter. I have no love for the politics that has dominated Formula 1 for many decades now.

P.S Whoever -1 my opinion post that's very mature that once again an abuse of power has occurred on this forum, rest assured moderators will be informed.
If someone said to me that you can have three wishes, my first would have been to get into racing, my second to be in Formula 1, my third to drive for Ferrari.

Gilles Villeneuve

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Cam
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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Hail22 wrote:P.S Whoever -1 my opinion post that's very mature that once again an abuse of power has occurred on this forum, rest assured moderators will be informed.
don't worry about it Hail22 - I don't. Heaven forbid we discuss anything general F1 related, which isn't purely engineering technical - let alone form our own views, that others agree with and suggest further people might find it worthwhile reading.

You'll find the same person who voted it down is the same kind of person that works at the FIA and with Bernie :wtf: which is why we're al the mess we're in....but I think to myself....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2VCwBzGdPM[/youtube]
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.

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Spankyham
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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Cam wrote: ... Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not possible or worthwhile.
....
Saying something is too hard, or too big to change is what Bernie and the FIA are relying on....
I don't think we are that far apart here. Perhaps I see the undertaking of completely replacing the FiA, their stewards and officials in all countries and at all races as a bigger task than you do. I do agree the bigger teams could take it on and make a go of it> Perhaps we differ in that I think the bigger teams see "fixing" what they currently have as a better/more-viable solution than trying to build it all from scratch again.

On-line streaming will one day be viable. To take over from traditional "pay-tv/cable" they need to tick 2 boxes as I see it:-
1) The backbone/access needs to proliferate to reach much bigger market % (as you point out that work is underway)
2) Delivery needs to be genuinely controllable (right now there's no way to stop people on the net masquerading their locations and identities. An effective, acceptable and affordable method of locking down transmissions over the net to only the paying subscriber must be found.
"He was the fastest driver I ever saw - faster even than Fangio"
_______________________________- Mike Hawthorn on Alberto Ascari

Richard
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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The benefit of the FIA is that it can act as an emollient and arbiter for all the bickering. Without the FIA the sport would be even more commercialised with even more gimmicks and less respect for the heritage and culture of motorsport. The promoter would dictate all the sporting and tech regs for the benefit of a few big money franchises. It would be the motorsport equivalent of WWF.

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Cam
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Re: No Concorde, No problem? Really?

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richard_leeds wrote:The benefit of the FIA is that it can act as an emollient and arbiter for all the bickering. Without the FIA the sport would be even more commercialised with even more gimmicks and less respect for the heritage and culture of motorsport.
Yes, it's like a government - it has rules (laws), income (taxes), paid people to help at events (civil servants) etc, and in theory it's there solely to help the population (teams in this instance). The FIA is now nothing more than a dictatorship that fails to act to want the people want. Sure, it's keeping the masses in check - but with force - and it's also keeping the sport back while demanding more money for the privilege. Maybe it's time for a revolution. A new government, a new system. If countries can do it, so can motorsport, don't you think?
richard_leeds wrote:The promoter would dictate all the sporting and tech regs for the benefit of a few big money franchises. It would be the motorsport equivalent of WWF.
In this instance the promoter would be the teams - so if the teams want to go that road, let them - it's their money, their cars and their show. All we're doing is letting them decide how to proceed - without 3rd party, selfish, interests standing in the way (and taking their profits). The teams want to promote their brands and further their own industry - giving them the free-for-all to do it would see a huge focus on the cars, which is what we all want.

I would strongly suggest that no top team or manufacture wants to invest in weird tyres, gimmicky DRS systems, stepped noses or anything else that doesn't directly improve racing and allow them to generate further income off the track by utilising their innovations for real world and other motorsport industries.

I'd trust the top four teams to unite and deliver this experience before I'd trust Bernie and the FIA to make it happen. That's where the conflict of interest lies and where the sport will never blossom while it remains.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
― Socrates
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed. Ignorant describes a person in the state of being unaware
who deliberately ignores or disregards important information or facts. © all rights reserved.