Are F1 drivers interested in racing?

[Bazza]

*warning - this is half rant, half hypotheticals*

Based on the last few races, there seems to be only a handful of drivers actually interested in racing.

Monaco, for instance; Sutil and Perez (and Raikonen to an extent) were the only drivers interested in racing - everyone else just wanted to (or seemed content to) play conga line. I understand that the 2 Mercs needed to help each other and their tyres at Monaco, but really; did they and Vettel need to just cruise around? Same thing with Hamilton at Canada. Here's a thought; maybe Vettel wouldn't win so often if other drivers would actually have a go at racing him. Again, Sutil had a good crack at everyone he found all weekend, same with Perez. Hamilton didn't even seem to mind when first place just cruises off into the distance, and disturbingly, a lot of fans evidently don't mind either...In fact the only time Hamilton got agitated was when another car got near him. Almost understandable when Alonso is hunting you down, but it's a race, racing people should be something that actually happens!

Now, I know that F1 cars are terrible at racing each other, the current race weekend format is terrible for encouraging close racing, and most of the tracks are terrible for racing on, but the fact that some drivers can do it anyway seems to suggest that it's the people in the cockpit that are also a big problem.
Is there anything that could be done to encourage racing from the drivers? Here's my idea.

Make them lose 2 points every 10 laps they don't overtake someone for position on-track.

Vettel flying off into the distance would only get 13-ish points for a win, potentially making second with overtaking and close racing a much more consistent points-scoring affair. Worse, if the leader DNFs before the finish but doesn't overtake anyone for 60 laps, they lose 12 points from their total.

[bhall]

Racing isn't necessarily about overtaking. It's about completing the race distance as quickly as possible given conditions* at the time. Sometimes that involves overtaking; other times it doesn't. That's the way it has always been.


* Conditions being the status of the car, tires, track, weather, competition, etc.

[Cam]

Agreed. The only thing I can add to that would be the pursuit - lap times, poles, records. Having 70 laps with a 'in the groove' f1 car, would be hugely satisfying, maybe more than overtaking.

[beelsebob]

*warning - this is half rant, half hypotheticals*

Based on the last few races, there seems to be only a handful of drivers actually interested in racing.

Monaco, for instance; Sutil and Perez (and Raikonen to an extent) were the only drivers interested in racing - everyone else just wanted to (or seemed content to) play conga line. I understand that the 2 Mercs needed to help each other and their tyres at Monaco, but really; did they and Vettel need to just cruise around? Same thing with Hamilton at Canada. Here's a thought; maybe Vettel wouldn't win so often if other drivers would actually have a go at racing him.

On the other hand "maybe" he would (I say "maybe" because this certainly would be the result. The chasing driver would destroy their tyres by sitting in his dirty air for a lap and a half, and that would be the race over.

[banibhusan]

Racing isn't necessarily about overtaking. It's about completing the race distance as quickly as possible given conditions* at the time. Sometimes that involves overtaking; other times it doesn't. That's the way it has always been.


* Conditions being the status of the car, tires, track, weather, competition, etc.

You forgot the ultimate goal mate, i.e. winning the championship.

[Kiril Varbanov]

There's no racing driver who's not interested in racing, especially if you have climbed all the way up to F1.
Problem is, on one side, driver's mentality - if he's aware of the constant issues pursuing his team, the motivation is going down. Next is money - certain drivers on the grid never think about money: "Am I going to drive this car next season, will I find money?". Instead, the financially backed ones are having the luxury to think about podiums, points and wins.

So, in that regard, overtaking is not even possible for some teams and it shouldn't be counted as a metric for successful racing.

[mnmracer]

In your scenario, we could have Vettel in the lead, Alonso and Massa second and third, and Webber fourth. Say these 4 are leading by 10 seconds.
Alonso and Massa swap places every few laps and they finish like that.
Behind them, Kimi and Lewis battle for 5th and 6th.
Thanks to a brilliant 1 stop strategy, Nico Hülkenberg makes it to 7th, but without having overtaken someone in the last 30 laps.
8, 9 and 10 are Sutil, Button and Perez.

Alonso 18 points
Massa 15 points
Vettel 13 points (1st to 3rd)
Kimi 10 points
Hamilton 8 points
Sutil 4 points
Button 2 points
Webber 1 point (4th to 9th)
Perez 1 point
Hülkenberg 0 points (7th to 11th)

If you still don't see what's wrong with that, ask who you consider yourself a greater sportsman:
boxer Mohammed Ali or wrestler Hulk Hogan.

[Bazza]

In your scenario, we could have Vettel in the lead, Alonso and Massa second and third, and Webber fourth. Say these 4 are leading by 10 seconds.
Alonso and Massa swap places every few laps and they finish like that.
Behind them, Kimi and Lewis battle for 5th and 6th.
Thanks to a brilliant 1 stop strategy, Nico Hülkenberg makes it to 7th, but without having overtaken someone in the last 30 laps.
8, 9 and 10 are Sutil, Button and Perez.

Alonso 18 points
Massa 15 points
Vettel 13 points (1st to 3rd)
Kimi 10 points
Hamilton 8 points
Sutil 4 points
Button 2 points
Webber 1 point (4th to 9th)
Perez 1 point
Hülkenberg 0 points (7th to 11th)

If you still don't see what's wrong with that, ask who you consider yourself a greater sportsman:
boxer Mohammed Ali or wrestler Hulk Hogan.

Firstly, before you go for the better sportsman analogy, do try to remember that the last decade of champions won in either the best or second-best car in the field. Vettel in RB678, Button in the Brawn1, Hamilton in the Mercedes, Raikonen in the F2007, Alonso in the Renaults and of course Schumaccer in the unstoppable Ferraris. These are F1 cars - that don't compete in Boxing or Wrestling.

In the scenario posted, Alonso, Massa, Kimi and Hamilton have all been racing closely, overtaking and generally being good to watch, showing off driver skill, which, as you seem to have missed, is kinda the point of what I'm saying.

If you're trying to get people to care about what would happen to Hulkenburg, just remember that the FIA banned in-race refueling with the express purpose of spicing up the ON-TRACK action. Also, if someone loses 6 points because of a tire strategy that doesn't have them racing against someone on-track, it's not a brilliant strategy, is it?

Though I do understand that, for someone caught in the middle points positions and there's a decent gap either side it can be a bit harsh. Minus 1 point for every 10 laps with no on-track overtakes would be kinder then.

[scotty86]

I do understand and believe that the race is far more important than qualifying, but i can only see a system such as this almost completely destroying the point of quali, which would be very sad and perhaps completely against a major part of the true ethos of motorsport itself. No one would want to qualify on pole position, a mentality that i find utterly ridiculous...

I do not believe for one second that the majority of the grid (as implied here) are not interested in racing... the point of racing is to get the best possible result on any given day, and all drivers do that, it is crazy to outright suggest otherwise. The only thing that perhaps changes in the case of F1 are driver or team priorities with regards to mounting or continuing championship challenges; but even in this case, that only restricts itself to being cautious in on track fights to avoid potentially DNF causing incidents. Also i'm sorry, but Monaco really is the absolute worst example of choosing overtaking as a marker of how race-minded a driver is being.

Some of the best drives ever are brilliant examples of how overtakes are not everything - you just have to look at Gilles Villeneuve's legendary win at Jarama for that. And no one in their right mind would try to debate whether he of all drivers was a true racer.

[timbo]

Well, sometimes I wonder if people are just too impatient and too quick too forget things?

This season offered plenty of various types of racing.
Why the need to pick Monaco? And especially why pick Perez? What exactly did he achieve from his overtakes?

And Canada -- you ask for Lewis to race Vettel? Didn't you see that Vettel got everyone except top 5 lapped? I don't remember this happening for a loooooong time. And why pick Sutil? He came 10th from 8th on the grid, while DiResta came 7th from 17th!

[mnmracer]

In the scenario posted, Alonso, Massa, Kimi and Hamilton have all been racing closely, overtaking and generally being good to watch, showing off driver skill, which, as you seem to have missed, is kinda the point of what I'm saying.

The issue is that you -in this scenario- only consider on-track battles a driver skill. Being the driver who is best in driving his balls of as fast as possible, is being punished by you. You don't want the best driver, you want the best showman.

Hence the comparison with Ali and Hogan. In your analogy, Hogan would be considered better sportsman because wrestling is all about the element of show, regardless of how good one is at the sport.

[Bazza]

Scotty, this does NOT make qualifying on pole position redundant. Think for a second it gives second place a massive incentive to go for the overtake for the lead of the race (something that would've been welcome at any race this season), at which time the new second place (assuming they've swapped) has an equally massive incentive to fight back for first. My system punishes boring racing basically across the board. You're mistaking someone being in the lead with someone 65 second ahead of first (something that thankfully happens only in F1).

timbo; I picked Monaco because Sutil and Perez were the only ones having a go. Everyone else was just cruising around - as evidenced by the last-lap frustration of most of the field when they realized they had tire life left, enough to push hard! Both those drivers managed to at least save the race from being 100% procession. Sutil managed 8th from 10th after a spin and a penalty, while Diresta gained 10 positions by racing off in a world of his own. One of these shows a driver willing to put it all on the line for overtakes, the other is so boring, uneventful and dull, not even the F1 broadcasting showed him on-track.

mnmracer, no I don't consider racing for position the only driver skill. Qualifying would still be important with my rule, but it would change from 70% focus on Quali, 29% Tires and 1% Actual Racing to something like 40% Quali, 30% Tires 30% Actual Racing. Also you still don't get that I'm not aiming to punish the faster drivers for being fast, I'm punishing the faster drivers when they're NOT being fast. This hits hard for people willing to cruise around nowhere near other cars, and yet you think it'll make lesser drivers appear better in the standings?

Many here are mistaking good racing with getting a good result. Vettel got a good result in Canada like Rosberg for a good result in Monaco like Alonso got a good result in Spain.

A lot of people seem to have this strange misconception that someone driving off into the distance to finish first is good racing.

It isn't.

Senna powering from the back of the grid to fourth in the 93 German GP is good racing. Watching footage of Senna even now, 10 laps of him powering through a field is still better than 70 laps of someone lapping most of the field.

[timbo]

timbo; I picked Monaco because Sutil and Perez were the only ones having a go.

And once again, what did Perez actually achieved? Don't you think there's not much overtaking in Monaco for a reason? Perez made some bold moves until Raikkonen finally decided he would not give it to him easily and it was a crash. Do you want to encourage that?

One of these shows a driver willing to put it all on the line for overtakes, the other is so boring, uneventful and dull, not even the F1 broadcasting showed him on-track.

What is that "all" you're talking about? Crashing into people? Do you really need this?

[Kiril Varbanov]

timbo; I picked Monaco because Sutil and Perez were the only ones having a go.

And once again, what did Perez actually achieved? Don't you think there's not much overtaking in Monaco for a reason? Perez made some bold moves until Raikkonen finally decided he would not give it to him easily and it was a crash. Do you want to encourage that?

One of these shows a driver willing to put it all on the line for overtakes, the other is so boring, uneventful and dull, not even the F1 broadcasting showed him on-track.

What is that "all" you're talking about? Crashing into people? Do you really need this?

I support that. There's a thin difference between being stupid, aggressive and bold, however, with huge outcome, the same way Grosjean and Maldonado crashed into other drivers. No one needs that. I can understand that Perez was bored (so were we, the spectators), but Perez retired and got no points, whereas the bored-to-hell Mark Webber got third place.

Forget about Monaco, because it's one of the a kind. I do continue to support my belief that Monaco GP should be canceled forever or made a proper race track and I'm actually doing a column about it in the local TopGear issue.

I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that your point is that you just want to see drivers pushing, not just cruising. This is unlikely to be changed by artificial points system or incentives, as opposed to real cure in the heart of the sport itself.

[Just_a_fan]

In answer to the topic question - no, drivers are not interested in racing. They're interested in winning. Overtaking is just something they have to do in order to win.

Ask any driver on the grid whether they'd rather be in Vettel's position or their own and they'd say "Vettel's". Every driver would prefer to have a car that allowed them to run off in to the distance and win with ease.

Sure, if they're stuck in the midfield then they may enjoy dicing with other drivers but that is not why they compete. They compete to win.

The notion of racing as entertainment for spectators is only held by spectators and those selling stuff to those spectators. The teams aren't interested in racing - they just want to win. All of the "X's run through the field was so much more fun to watch than Y's leading the whole race from the front" stuff is irrelevant to the teams and drivers. X would much rather have been in Y's position.