Usefulness of chicanes at LeMans

[MadMatt]

I know this is a tricky topic, but I would like to discuss with you guys why we couldn't have the chicanes removed at LeMans.

Just for the sake of it, here is what it used to look like in 1989:



Now don't get me wrong, I understand that for safety reasons and to slow the cars down they have decided to introduce these chicanes. When you see what happened to Toyota at the end of the last bit of the Hunaudières you may argue that without the chicanes that accident would have been much bigger and horrendous. And it might be right! When you see the following one, that is quite scary (and we all have the Mercedes pictures still printed I think):



But I think now with the progress in the monocoque strenght and the reduced speed differential between the cars compared to what it used to be 20-25 years ago, why not removing them? I don't want to start putting too much on the table, just want to know what people think about that idea.

[Lycoming]

Let me answer your question with a question: Why remove them? Your post doesn't explicitly provide any reason to remove them, and I honestly see no reason to return it to an uninterrupted straight.

[wesley123]

With the long straight there comes another addition to it; extreme low downforce cars. In first thought not a problem at all, the cars will just go faster down the straight. On the other hand, the car will have less downforce, thus less force pushing it down. And thus, as an effect have a larger chance of taking off, as well as events like the Toyota last year happening at a much higher speed.

So yes, the cars might be much safer, and much limited, yet removing the chicanes shifts the cars setup to ultra low downforce and also increases top speed on the track, increasing danger by a large amount.

[Huntresa]

Yeah exactly it doesnt rly matter how strong and safe the cars are, without the chicanes the cars will fly at some point.

[MadMatt]

Removing the chicanes would allow the cars to reach very high top speed. Something that can only be seen in America on the ovals (besides dragster racing). I think a venue which offers a different challenge is needed in Europe, and considering the History of LeMans, I think there is no other track where this could happen.

LeMans has become just "another track" with these chicanes when it was implemented imo. Removing them would allow some nice battles down the straight, and I am not sure about the take off thing. The cars are not as extreme as they used to be and really need special conditions to "fly". Then why not introducing flaps like in Nascar to avoid the cars to take off when they happen to get to very high yaw angles?

Having lower downforce will also reduce the speed at which the cars are travelling in the last part of the track where there is no room for error and where we have seen an increasing number of big crashes.

[Huntresa]

Removing the chicanes would allow the cars to reach very high top speed. Something that can only be seen in America on the ovals (besides dragster racing). I think a venue which offers a different challenge is needed in Europe, and considering the History of LeMans, I think there is no other track where this could happen.

LeMans has become just "another track" with these chicanes when it was implemented imo. Removing them would allow some nice battles down the straight, and I am not sure about the take off thing. The cars are not as extreme as they used to be and really need special conditions to "fly". Then why not introducing flaps like in Nascar to avoid the cars to take off when they happen to get to very high yaw angles?

Having lower downforce will also reduce the speed at which the cars are travelling in the last part of the track where there is no room for error and where we have seen an increasing number of big crashes.

Dude the cars fly easy on the table tops, even in lower categories, i was watching the Italian Superstars International Series this past weekend from Slovakia Ring which features several table tops, and right before one they had to make a chicane out of tyres etc to stop the cars of lifting and crashing, and this is cars that are heavy and less powerful and less aerodynamic then le mans prototypes.

[zonk]

[Huntresa]

And this shows how little air you actually need to make the car flip all the way over

[MadMatt]

Huntresa this is when the cars were ran very close to the ground and were very sensitive to even small incidence on the attitude of the car. Nowadays the only way (or so) to make the car flip is if they are at very high speed with big yaw angle, like when a tyre exploade at the back or if the car is hit on the side at the rear. I doubt situations like what Mercedes experienced in 1999 will reproduce again.

[Huntresa]

Huntresa this is when the cars were ran very close to the ground and were very sensitive to even small incidence on the attitude of the car. Nowadays the only way (or so) to make the car flip is if they are at very high speed with big yaw angle, like when a tyre exploade at the back or if the car is hit on the side at the rear. I doubt situations like what Mercedes experienced in 1999 will reproduce again.

Yeah but as i said above about what i saw this past weekend, even in a series with standard cars they were afraid.

[wesley123]

Huntresa this is when the cars were ran very close to the ground and were very sensitive to even small incidence on the attitude of the car. Nowadays the only way (or so) to make the car flip is if they are at very high speed with big yaw angle, like when a tyre exploade at the back or if the car is hit on the side at the rear. I doubt situations like what Mercedes experienced in 1999 will reproduce again.

I think they will, teams will run ultra low downforce packages again(like in the '80s) which just take off earlier with the lower df as there is less force pushing the car down

[WhiteBlue]

I think Le Mans is pretty dangerous as it is. The last thing the ACO would do is making it any riskier. Why would they? To satisfy a request by very few people who want to see higher speeds? The race is popular and attracting huge attention world wide. More danger of fatal accidents would probably damage the attractivity for a majority of race fans.

[McMrocks]

Everything what improves safety should be done. Removing the chicanes would cause, as some wrote, that the cars would run less downforce and the speed will increase. Racing is not 100% safe but everything what makes it safer makes is good.
People learn from mistakes, thus, if they remove the chicanes, it will need a big accident that they would bring them back.

And who knows, maybe the chicanes saved already the life of a person...

Safety should not be decreased for beauty or for the thrill. It is not only for saving lifes its also for avoiding serious injuries.

So removing the chicanes would just make it even more dangerous than it is now and it would add only a litte amount of allure

[MadMatt]

I don't really agree. Of course that will increase the risk due to the speeds, but it would not only add "a little bit of allure". We are talking about speeds near the 400 mark, which I think is what a lot of people think about when they hear LeMans or prototypes. Don't get me wrong, I understand the risks for both the drivers and the marshals behind the barriers.

The concern regarding the accidents however is not really true, we had accidents even with the chicanes (look last year the big shunt with the historic group C cars). I don't think any driver complained about the speed at the time the chicanes were not there. They complained about the speed difference especially at night. The overtaken driver could not really judge the speed or act fast enough sometimes because the car was already passing him. Nowadays with xenon lights and the reduced speed difference, this issue would not really be a big concern anymore.

The hill at the end of the straight has also been reduced many years ago to prevent take off and even if strong side wing could cause some issues, I doubt it would be a big problem as well. I must say I am a bit surprised to be the only 1 defending the non-chicane cause there. Maybe I am just a dreamer of the "good old days" and as it has been said, the ACO won't remove them since it will mean reduced safety, but I just wanted to see pros and cons.

[Pierce89]

I don't really agree. Of course that will increase the risk due to the speeds, but it would not only add "a little bit of allure". We are talking about speeds near the 400 mark, which I think is what a lot of people think about when they hear LeMans or prototypes. Don't get me wrong, I understand the risks for both the drivers and the marshals behind the barriers.

The concern regarding the accidents however is not really true, we had accidents even with the chicanes (look last year the big shunt with the historic group C cars). I don't think any driver complained about the speed at the time the chicanes were not there. They complained about the speed difference especially at night. The overtaken driver could not really judge the speed or act fast enough sometimes because the car was already passing him. Nowadays with xenon lights and the reduced speed difference, this issue would not really be a big concern anymore.

The hill at the end of the straight has also been reduced many years ago to prevent take off and even if strong side wing could cause some issues, I doubt it would be a big problem as well. I must say I am a bit surprised to be the only 1 defending the non-chicane cause there. Maybe I am just a dreamer of the "good old days" and as it has been said, the ACO won't remove them since it will mean reduced safety, but I just wanted to see pros and cons.

There is no reduced speed difference its still a multi class race. I actually like the idea though. I think the safety should be a factor, but I don't like the sanitization of all the classic tracks. If a driver thinks its too dangerous, he can say "no".