Upright engine icm gyroscopic effect

[Jolle]

Now with the V6 engines (as they are shorter then a V8 or V10) I wonder if any team had tried to put the engine upright jet.

I presume that the fast spinning crankshaft is producing such a gyroscopic effect that it prevents the turn-in of the car a bit. If you put the crank upright, you even might need a bit less front downforce and less roll mid corner...

maybe a good idea for Honda next year

[neilbah]

this aint boat racing , its simply not allowed under the rules and from an engineering point of view probably quite a challenge for all sorts of reasons.

[spacer]

I'd wager a guess the higher CoG negates any gains you might have made otherwise.

[OdinYggd]

I'd wager a guess the higher CoG negates any gains you might have made otherwise.

Most likely this.

To get the kinds of gains you are hoping for you would have to use a radial type block in order to keep the center of gravity low enough. Plus there would then be the additional 90 degree turn that has to be made- introducing additional complexity to the drivetrain by requiring the transmission operate while standing on its head or include some type of gear train to get power around the turn.

Between regulations and engineering challenges it probably wouldn't be worth the effort.

[Lycoming]

I doubt that the effect is significant enough to warrant doing that.

[PhillipM]

Actually, you'd want to put the engine sideways across the chassis, no?
Otherwise the torque reaction will be an issue.

[DaveKillens]

Actually, you'd want to put the engine sideways across the chassis, no?
Otherwise the torque reaction will be an issue.

That is what I was thinking too.

Under the current layout, any change in RPM introduces roll movements in the chassis. Place the crankshaft vertical, and it introduces yaw. But if you have the sidewinder layout, then we're talking about pitch, which may be beneficial.

Honda actually won the 1965 Mexican Grand Prix with their RA272, a sidewinder.

[flynfrog]

I doubt that the effect is significant enough to warrant doing that.

I agree Yunick tried a reverse rotation engine back in the 50s at indy to try to get the car to plant the left side better

http://www.macsmotorcitygarage.com/2013 ... e-special/

[Jolle]

Yamaha is doing the same kind of thing with their motogp machine for years now, by having the engine turn backwards, they counteract wheelies a bit. It's not much, but all small effects help.

For anybody who driven different kind of engine placements on motorbikes, knows the amount of force that the crankshaft has on the dynamics of handling. For instance, a MotoGuzzi or a BMW boxer turns in quite different then a in-line Honda or Yamaha, just because you have to fight a different kind of gyroscopic force (next to the wheels)

In normal road cars, you don't feel it as much because of the weight to gyroscopic force ratio, but I remember when I drove a Triumph Spitfire a lot, when I revved the engine when stationary, the car would roll a bit....

[Tommy Cookers]

Now with the V6 engines (as they are shorter then a V8 or V10) I wonder if any team had tried to put the engine upright jet.
I presume that the fast spinning crankshaft is producing such a gyroscopic effect that it prevents the turn-in of the car a bit. If you put the crank upright, you even might need a bit less front downforce and less roll mid corner...

before this thread departs even further from the OP concerning gyroscopic torques (not all torques) ......
the turbo/mgu-h has rather a lot of inertia and rotates parallel to the crankshaft
in either the same sense or in the opposite sense of rotation
so there's 2 major sets of parts developing gyroscopic reaction torques, these may tend to add or cancel
in addition to the issue of which gyroscopic torque direction is favourable and which is not

the motorcycle world should understand that 'their' road wheel rotational inertia is far greater than that of the crankshaft etc
and that some of the roll moment coming from the lean angle is needed to produce the yawing element of cornering
ie the 'gyroscopic' reaction torque of the wheels (and crankshaft) etc 'uses up' around 2-4 deg of lean
Tony Wilson-Jones (of Royal Enfield) presented a (UK) I Mech E Auto Div paper in 1951-2, in part addressing this
http://pad.sagepub.com/content/5/1/191.abstract

PS the engine rotation is dictated by design choices
eg chain primary drive and indirect gear/transmission configuration would give engine rotation opposite to road wheel rotation
this somewhat reduces the algebraic sum total (ie net) gyroscopic reaction
but not the lean angle required to yaw the rotating items, this depends on the arithmetic sum total gyro reaction
because for cornering the lean angle moment must do work to yaw all the rotational inertias, of whatever their rotation sense
it's immaterial to this whether the gyro reaction torques to the yaw are in the same sense or not
...... I think

[olefud]

In normal road cars, you don't feel it as much because of the weight to gyroscopic force ratio, but I remember when I drove a Triumph Spitfire a lot, when I revved the engine when stationary, the car would roll a bit....

The rolling would probably be a reaction to accelerating the spinning components. Gyroscopic reaction would require an angular change in the spin axis.

[MadMatt]

Having an engine mounted in transverse position is a good advantage in rallying and rallycross, as the cars are working a lot with small taps on the throttle. Liam Doran has a DS3 "WRC" with transverse engine while his father has one with engine mounted longitudinally. The latter is easier to package, although in recent years 6 speed transversal gearboxes have become really small and light!

[OdinYggd]

I think the killer with a traverse engine in a high performance application is the apparent necessity of chaining the motor output to the gearbox input. Most front wheel drive vehicles already have to do this, and that chain becomes a liability later on as it wears away.

[PhillipM]

I can't think of any front wheel drive that uses a chain, you just put the 'box on the side and run straight shafts, it's simpler than a RWD setup