Wheelgun Alternatives ?

[Webber2011]

Hey guys, I was having a chat with my Brother who is what I'd call a casual F1 viewer.
He might watch 5 or 6 races a year, but watches other motorsport like Nascar.

We were watching a Nascar race the other day and one of the drivers ran over the wheelgun hose.
Nothing spectacular, but it got us wondering why in this day and age they even have hoses ?

I realise the set ups aren't quite the same in differing motorsport categories, but I feel this is relevant to all forms, especially with F1 blowing it's trumpet about energy saving and recovery.

Why on earth don't they use a battery operated wheelgun ? ? ?

We have cordless drills that could rip your arms off, so power isn't the problem.
The amount of time they are actually used is minimal, so charge isn't either.
Some of the cordless power tools are incredibly robust these days, so strength should be fine.

Basically we discussed the pro's and con's and couldn't really see a downside.

Does any one here know why they've not been used ?

And if it's been thought of, why hasn't it been adopted ?

Cheers guys,
Simon

[SectorOne]

We have cordless drills that could rip your arms off, so power isn't the problem.

Do you have an example of one that could be used?
I don´t think they have the strength and that you would be forced to use a torque wrench still with any electric device.

[flynfrog]

We have cordless drills that could rip your arms off, so power isn't the problem.

you are confusing torque with power. The air line allows the energy to be stored off the gun keeping it lighter. My guess is that to equal the power the wheel gun has you need a pretty beefy motor and battery assembly.

[PlatinumZealot]

I have a 40 dollar electric impact wrench. Just 3/4hp. This will be easy for a batter to do... for a few times at least! haha.

The advantage of the air powered guns is lighter weight, more reliability and more power. The hose is a trip hazard I agree...

Batteries and electric motors are do'able though... but the weight... and the battery changes..

[NL_Fer]

Back in the refueling era, the sparks of the electric equipment was considered a risk. Because it could ignite the fumes.

[Jolle]

I think its just a chance. electric wheel guns aren't faster, even less probably because they are heavier. The Hoses look weird, but not really a problem. The reliability of the current system is almost 100% (the problems are more with connecting to the wheel then the gun itself)

having 4 separate electric guns, there is more chance for something going kaput. With all the pitstops in a season, you going to loose somewhere a few places because of a misfirering electric gun.

[Webber2011]

We have cordless drills that could rip your arms off, so power isn't the problem.

Do you have an example of one that could be used?
I don´t think they have the strength and that you would be forced to use a torque wrench still with any electric device.

Just the other day I used a Bosch cordless that I borrowed from a mate, and I guess that's what started us thinking along those lines.
I was drilling through the bottom of stone pots, and it certainly had enough torque to come out of my hands when it got stuck.
What sort of measure that equates to I have no idea ?

Does any one know the forces required to safely do up a F1 wheel nut ?

I used it for a good 30 minutes with no visible loss of charge, so the batteries have definitely come a long way since I owned my old 12v Black and Decker, ( that would go flat within 5 minutes ).

The sparking problem is one we never considered.

Nor weight as I figured most of the high quality drills are under 5 or 6 kilo's, so a wheel gun could be made for roughly the same.

*Edit*
Found a good article here.
Maybe I've underestimated just how good the current guns are

[Shrieker]

Very nice article. And wow, 3000 N.m Just out of curiosity, i had a look at my bike's service manual and the specified torque value for the front wheel axle bolt is 59 N.m. I'm thinking now maybe they aren't using all of that 3000 N.m of torque to tighten the nuts on a Formula 1 car ? Or do they

[proteus]

Well instead of hoses they could use tanks strapped on their backs, but it would look a bit strange and clumsy. Since technology of gas tanks have improved significantly over the years by using composites and fibres, they can hold pretty highly pressurised air inside, so they could be smaller, but then there is a problem by its small volume and lack of equipment to fill them.

[PlatinumZealot]

Very nice article. And wow, 3000 N.m Just out of curiosity, i had a look at my bike's service manual and the specified torque value for the front wheel axle bolt is 59 N.m. I'm thinking now maybe they aren't using all of that 3000 N.m of torque to tighten the nuts on a Formula 1 car ? Or do they

That is 2,200 foot pounds.. It is possible the gun can make that through impact and high air pressure. If that force is used on an actual formula 1 wheel nut now, I doubt it. If the helix angle of the nut is measured... that would be a ridiculous amount of force pulling on those threads. Lets say a 5 degree helix angle - that is 156,000lbs (or 696,000N!) of clamping force!... Let's say the thread is 6mm wide at the root and the helix height is 40mm - spindle diameter 50mm. 3 turns. That means the total thread root area is ~ 2840 mm^2... or 28.40 cm^2. Assuming all threads bear the load.. that is a shear force of 24,400 N.cm^2. This is too close to the yeild point of titianium and annealed steel with a safety factor applied... and well past some of the strongest aluminum alloys (with safety factor). I doubt this much torque is applied or else there would be a really high failure rate of stripped threads.

[Moose]

My bet is that the benefit is purely in weight. By providing the mechanic with a light wheel gun, they make it easier for the mechanic to accurately position that wheel gun, and quickly do their job.

[Webber2011]

Very nice article. And wow, 3000 N.m Just out of curiosity, i had a look at my bike's service manual and the specified torque value for the front wheel axle bolt is 59 N.m. I'm thinking now maybe they aren't using all of that 3000 N.m of torque to tighten the nuts on a Formula 1 car ? Or do they

That is 2,200 foot pounds.. It is possible the gun can make that through impact and high air pressure. If that force is used on an actual formula 1 wheel nut now, I doubt it. If the helix angle of the nut is measured... that would be a ridiculous amount of force pulling on those threads. Lets say a 5 degree helix angle - that is 156,000lbs (or 696,000N!) of clamping force!... Let's say the thread is 6mm wide at the root and the helix height is 40mm - spindle diameter 50mm. 3 turns. That means the total thread root area is ~ 2840 mm^2... or 28.40 cm^2. Assuming all threads bear the load.. that is a shear force of 24,400 N.cm^2. This is too close to the yeild point of titianium and annealed steel with a safety factor applied... and well past some of the strongest aluminum alloys (with safety factor). I doubt this much torque is applied or else there would be a really high failure rate of stripped threads.

Great post PZ, thanks for the info.

In your opinion would it be possible then to get enough torque out of a battery powered unit to do the job ?

Most high quality drills I've looked up don't quote torque.
Generally just rpm and hammer speeds.

[GSBellew]

Batteries can and do fail with no warning, they only last so many charge cycles, you would have to discharge & recharge
between every session, eight guns per team every session.

The compressed air supply is required anyway, only consumes energy when the compressor is running so is more efficient,
tools are lighter, more reliable, arguably should be cheaper.

[langwadt]

Very nice article. And wow, 3000 N.m Just out of curiosity, i had a look at my bike's service manual and the specified torque value for the front wheel axle bolt is 59 N.m. I'm thinking now maybe they aren't using all of that 3000 N.m of torque to tighten the nuts on a Formula 1 car ? Or do they

That is 2,200 foot pounds.. It is possible the gun can make that through impact and high air pressure. If that force is used on an actual formula 1 wheel nut now, I doubt it. If the helix angle of the nut is measured... that would be a ridiculous amount of force pulling on those threads. Lets say a 5 degree helix angle - that is 156,000lbs (or 696,000N!) of clamping force!... Let's say the thread is 6mm wide at the root and the helix height is 40mm - spindle diameter 50mm. 3 turns. That means the total thread root area is ~ 2840 mm^2... or 28.40 cm^2. Assuming all threads bear the load.. that is a shear force of 24,400 N.cm^2. This is too close to the yeild point of titianium and annealed steel with a safety factor applied... and well past some of the strongest aluminum alloys (with safety factor). I doubt this much torque is applied or else there would be a really high failure rate of stripped threads.

Great post PZ, thanks for the info.

In your opinion would it be possible then to get enough torque out of a battery powered unit to do the job ?

Most high quality drills I've looked up don't quote torque.
Generally just rpm and hammer speeds.

a quick look at the local hardware store, it is generally 0-2000rpm, 200-600Nm

[Cold Fussion]

This is a solution in search of a problem IMO. I've never seen an F1 car run over the air lines and the risk of it happening is mitigated by the teams pulling in the lines when other teams are coming in for a pit stop, what's more the potential injury if the line is pulled out isn't huge beyond the initial whipping force of the line. There have been so many other pitstop safety concersn arise over the years that I don't see the benefit in focusing on such a small risk.