UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

[Tommy Cookers]

the lovely Western Europeans who told us to save ourselves and the planet by going diesel .......
are now telling us that the diesel car (and van) are killing us and the planet
and so sales of new "diesel and petrol" cars and vans will be ended

what's that ! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

75% of the airborne particulates in London come from wood-burning heating that was to save us and the planet
contrary to the impression we are given, our city air quality has not deteriorated - it is better than ever
what's changed is that the W.H.O has halved it's idea of the safe NOx level (without real evidence)
we now know more about particulates, but particulates haven't changed their behaviour because of this

the UK government announced yesterday that we shall store wind energy in batteries because the wind doesn't blow all the time
what they mean is that they will use our 35 million electric car batteries to store and even return stored energy to the grid

these people and their decisions have a bad record - should we have faith in them now ?
throughout history our rulers ruled by making people feel frightened and guilty - and they're still doing this

[Gettingonabit]

the lovely Western Europeans who told us to save ourselves and the planet by going diesel .......
are now telling us that the diesel car (and van) are killing us and the planet
and so sales of new "diesel and petrol" cars and vans will be ended

what's that ! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

75% of the airborne particulates in London come from wood-burning heating that was to save us and the planet

the UK government announced yesterday that we shall store wind energy in batteries because the wind doesn't blow all the time

Yep, pathetic isn't it

[Zynerji]

It's like the worst Democrats from the US left in rejection, and now rule the UK...

[Just_a_fan]

On the bright side, it means we'll finally stop giving money to the Saudis et al for oil. Money which is then used to promote their narrow, hard line, version of Islam. The version that treats women like cattle. Hell, camels are treated better.

The UK has some of the largest tides in the world and is surrounded by these tides (being an island). We should be chucking money at tidal barrages rather than HS2. The great thing about tides is that they are totally predictable (within the certainties needed here) and are spread out around the island. Therefore we can generate our electrical demand all day/night.

Sadly, this requires real political foresight, long term planning and leadership. Our current politicians are too busy playing games to offer real leadership.

[Fulcrum]

It's just a plan for now. Like most draft legislation, they're swinging for the fences.

I'm not completely familiar with the British legislative process, but politicians can draft anything; getting it legislated likely requires public and professional correspondence, debates in the House, etc...

Given the relative nascence of the technologies required to support such a move, I'd consider this a "vision statement". It's a nice fluffy concept that's easily conveyed to the media and the wider general public, but practically unreasonable - at this point anyway.

This feels more like a political PR exercise to me, so I'd ask, who is proposing this (the party and the individuals), who benefits, who loses out.

Politicians think hierarchically: themselves; business interests that benefit them; their party members who don't threaten them; the wider party; other political entities; the general public.

I highly doubt the well-being of the general public was forefront in the minds of the draftees.

[ChrisDanger]

Wow, politics and religion all in one thread?

Hopefully, if this is ever implemented, they still allow the odd petrolhead to roar around for fun.

[Tommy Cookers]

[quote=Just_a_fan].......The UK has some of the largest tides in the world and is surrounded by these tides (being an island). We should be chucking money at tidal barrages rather than HS2. The great thing about tides is that they are totally predictable (within the certainties needed here) and are spread out around the island. Therefore we can generate our electrical demand all day/night.
Sadly, this requires real political foresight, long term planning and leadership. .......[/quote]

only this country of crazies would fail to build a tidal barrage on the Severn

it would be quick and cheap to build (because the water is so shallow) ie there's simply a lot of bang per buck
about 30 years ago the Govt had such a scheme designed and tested (then shelved because oil was again cheap and UK gas was emergent)
of nominally about 8000 MW peak (installed generating power) and equivalent to a notional 1300 MW continuous 24/7/
its Severn position ('Cardiff to Weston') was determined by Sir Hermann Bondi's commission to be almost the position of maximum energy flow
earlier work suggested the 10x greater water enclosure of a 'Bristol Channel' barrage ('Gower peninsula to Ilfracombe') would have far greater energy flow
a modern study confirms this , apparently a BC barrage would have 4x a Severn barrage's power ie maybe 35000 MW peak
http://www.atkinsglobal.co.uk/~/media/F ... -power.pdf
EU law requiring any displaced wildlife to be rehomed elsewhere is taken as a block on tidal barrage work
actually barrage sites are poor for wildlife, the natural water being opaque and often absent, a barrage would actually increase total wildlife

consideration of smaller developments ('Tidal Lagoons') in localised energy 'hotspots' is fashionable
but TLs make less use of the favourable natural bathymetry and so are disproportionately expensive to construct
they compete fatally with a proper barrage, but are favoured as a vehicle of regional politics and its privileged access to 'EU' funding

only one Tidal Lagoon is needed to kill forever a Severn or Bristol Channel barrage

[Just_a_fan]

It's just a plan for now. Like most draft legislation, they're swinging for the fences.



This feels more like a political PR exercise to me, so I'd ask, who is proposing this (the party and the individuals), who benefits, who loses out.

The proposal has been published because the UK Courts told the UK Govt that they have to produce something. This is in response to legal action brought against the Govt.

The reality is that the UK will not be in a position, financially, to implement anything in the years after Brexit.

[R_GoWin]

This is a London centric policy with an immense carbon footprint, which is not going to work across the rest of the country. Also, this is about air quality (NOx and PM) and little to do with the planet (CO2) - hence it flies in the face of the government's commitment to COP 21 Paris agreements. Not that you needed proof as the UK Treasury scrapped the funding for carbon capture and storage competition in 2015 - when its openly acknowledged as the only viable way to achieve 2050 CO2 targets.

Also close to 50% of PM10 emission is brake dust and tyre wear - going electric will do little here. A much cheaper and urgent way of going about it would be to migrate to autogas as transportation fuel - propane (C3) is a far lighter hydrocarbon than gasoline (C6-8) or Diesel (C12-15). Being gaseous, it has a less propensity to pyrolysis and form soot - than say a direct injection with a liquid fuel. And oh - move away from using Heathrow as the main international airport, ban any unauthorised combustion for pleasure - bonfires, wood fired burners, fireworks. Upgrade every domestic and commercial boiler to condensing type. Retrofit aftertreatment/ electrify all train lines coming into London - air quality in Paddington Station is worse than the roads immediately outside of it simply because the station connects to more parts of the coutry where trains are run using pre-2006 manufacturered diesels engines (which as a comparison is as bad 1980s cars - as no EU legislations existed for trains before '06).

Its one thing to take back control, but quite another to know what to do with that control.

[FrukostScones]

the lovely Western Europeans who told us to save ourselves and the planet by going diesel .......
are now telling us that the diesel car (and van) are killing us and the planet
and so sales of new "diesel and petrol" cars and vans will be ended

what's that ! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

75% of the airborne particulates in London come from wood-burning heating that was to save us and the planet
contrary to the impression we are given, our city air quality has not deteriorated - it is better than ever
what's changed is that the W.H.O has halved it's idea of the safe NOx level (without real evidence)
we now know more about particulates, but particulates haven't changed their behaviour because of this

the UK government announced yesterday that we shall store wind energy in batteries because the wind doesn't blow all the time
what they mean is that they will use our 35 million electric car batteries to store and even return stored energy to the grid

these people and their decisions have a bad record - should we have faith in them now ?
throughout history our rulers ruled by making people feel frightened and guilty - and they're still doing this

yeah, still the Diesel apologists... cough...cough.
German car lobbyists told you to go Diesel.
Every child back then new that DI TurboDiesel Emissions woul be harmful and not to contain in an efficient manner...
But they all bought those subsidied "Co2 savers" and enjoyed the torque surge till 2500 rpm
No one should have bought Diesels then and should buy them now.
and as the deluded automotive German engineer uncle of a good friend said: "the air will be cleaner after the exhausts then before the air filter"

[notsofast]

not going to work across the rest of the country

Apparently there's a guy driving half way around the world in an electric car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AdJ8ou-uCA

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk_uRJ ... F3A/videos

Surely, this can work across the UK?

[Pat Pending]

It's all the usual Government hype. What's missing from all the headline reporting is that this 'ban' will NOT include petrol & diesel hybrids. Given that the motor industry is moving towards hybridisation of all models just to meet future emissions regs then it's quiet probable that you won't be able to buy a purely petrol or diesel car come 2020 anyway, regardless of any 'ban'.

[Andres125sx]

the lovely Western Europeans who told us to save ourselves and the planet by going diesel .......

Sorry but I found this statement laugable

Who told you that?

[Andres125sx]

Also close to 50% of PM10 emission is brake dust and tyre wear - going electric will do little here.

Actually it will

The other day I took a taxi wich was a Prius, and talking with him about the Prius he told me apart from fuel (he´s getting around 5-6 l /100km as an average, wich is great for such a big car into the city), he told me his brakes are lasting around double than usual, as the regeneration braking makes most of the braking so the car does not use the traditional brakes as much. That means a saving of around 50% in brake dust emissions

He also said a third of the whole taxi fleet here in Madrid are Toyota Prius. His had 570k km, with battery swaps each 120-150k km. I know the Prius is a car wich looks like designed for a city taxi, as the extra price for the hybrid part is easily paid off with the fuel saving in their case, and is big enough to carry passengers and their luggage, wich is not common for a car whose better environement is the city, but it would be different for a particular, but even so that should mean something about hybrids

[Andres125sx]

what's that ! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

Is the Telegraph serious? It looks sensationalistic to me, at least after watching that video stating "electric cars are not as green as you might think"...

Even if they´re not, they have the potential to be in the future, something wich cannot be said with petrol or diesel engines, so considering the new is about 2040 car market, some mention should be there about new batteries under development wich are several orders of magnitude more eco-friendly than current lithium batteries. I´ve even read some will be 100% recyclable so even the manufacturing emissions will be drastically reduced in the future

Also, if the energy produced in the UK comes from coal plants mainly, that´s barely EV responsibility. They should blame the government for their energy plan, not EVs