Are F1 Cars really the pinnacle anymore?

[Mad_Scientist]

I mean, yes, its true, they are certainly the fastest thing around any track. That isn't really debatable. But from my perspective, F1 is supposed to be the place where limits are pushed both physical and technological. F1 now does everything but. Traction control: gone; ground effect: gone; ANTILOCK BRAKES!!! gone; hydrualic suspensions: gone; and one measly movable aero surface. ( I want to see flaps moving on these things like a fighter jet)

I mean, we are fast approaching a point where road cars with all their technology are not so far behind F1 cars in the realm of impressiveness. The P1 does nurburgring in 6:43 and weighs 3400+ lbs. That's freaking phenomenal. And when you're done you can cut the air conditioning on. And sure a 2017 F1 car can probably pull an even 5 Minutes lap, which is just stupid fast, but how fast could it be if they used all the technology available to them? To me, the P1 is more impressive. Not as fast, but more impressive.

I mean, once upon a time you came to F1 because you might just see a car with 6 wheels, or a giant fan in the back, or some rule reading technical guru came up with some loophole they just annihilated the competition and pissed everyone else off. Now-a-days your lucky to see someone pass the car in front of them. And 6 wheels? Forget it. We get excited about T-wings now. Maybe to make it more exciting they should add another winglet.

And is the racing really any better for it? in 2010 4 drivers were eligible to win the championship in the last race. 7 years later, we have regressed. its almost as if there isn't true "racing" anymore. its more about who pits at the right time and who takes the right tires. Its disappointing to me that I can go to some other series, and see cars that may not be as fast, but are loaded with technology.

and then there is halo...

[wesley123]

I mean, yes, its true, they are certainly the fastest thing around any track. That isn't really debatable. But from my perspective, F1 is supposed to be the place where limits are pushed both physical and technological. F1 now does everything but. Traction control: gone; ground effect: gone; ANTILOCK BRAKES!!! gone; hydrualic suspensions: gone; and one measly movable aero surface. ( I want to see flaps moving on these things like a fighter jet)

How can you be the pinnacle if you introduce technologies that will make F1 physically less demanding?

Point being; Compromise. For some reason people seem to forget everything ever is a compromise.

/thread

[Mad_Scientist]

I mean, yes, its true, they are certainly the fastest thing around any track. That isn't really debatable. But from my perspective, F1 is supposed to be the place where limits are pushed both physical and technological. F1 now does everything but. Traction control: gone; ground effect: gone; ANTILOCK BRAKES!!! gone; hydrualic suspensions: gone; and one measly movable aero surface. ( I want to see flaps moving on these things like a fighter jet)

How can you be the pinnacle if you introduce technologies that will make F1 physically less demanding?

Point being; Compromise. For some reason people seem to forget everything ever is a compromise.

/thread

How can you be the pinnacle when you dont even have antilock brakes? If F1 takes a couple more steps backwards they will be running carburetors

[Ennis]

I mean, yes, its true, they are certainly the fastest thing around any track. That isn't really debatable. But from my perspective, F1 is supposed to be the place where limits are pushed both physical and technological. F1 now does everything but. Traction control: gone; ground effect: gone; ANTILOCK BRAKES!!! gone; hydrualic suspensions: gone; and one measly movable aero surface. ( I want to see flaps moving on these things like a fighter jet)

How can you be the pinnacle if you introduce technologies that will make F1 physically less demanding?

Point being; Compromise. For some reason people seem to forget everything ever is a compromise.

/thread

How can you be the pinnacle when you dont even have antilock breaks? If F1 takes a couple more steps backwards they will be running carburetors

It's the so-called pinnacle of motorsport. They can't forget the sport element, which means relying a bit on the drivers, which means limiting certain driver aids. I don't think its ever been marketed as "the most technologically advanced machines which include every technological enhancement ever".

[Mattchu]

Where would you stop though? Take the drivers out and have them run the car from a simulator! Things such as traction control and anti-lock brakes take a huge amount of the driver skill out of the very thing the`re being lauded for doing...driving.
When the pinnacle of motorsport is talked about, I always look at it as its the drivers who are the very best in the world, not the cars or technology associated with them [although it is very impressive].

Plus it`s never really been "easy" to overtake in F1, with DRS it`s easier and we have more overtakes [albeit some a bit artificial] but there has never been a `golden era` where cars were overtaking left right and centre, someone mentioned the Trulli train on here a few days back, remember them!

[Mad_Scientist]

I dont know.. where would you stop. traction control might help, but its not a replacement for a good driver. and a bad driver with traction control will still get beat by a good driver with traction control. id prefer to see cars that can take ridiculous lines in the corners at the "expense" of having traction control. and again.. antilock brakes. thats just basic technology. how many times have you watched cars skidding across the grass/rocks with the tires locked? would not antilocks be beneficial to safety (even if only marginally)

[Mad_Scientist]

really though.. my entire point of this was... its no longer the sport where one day you might see a car with 6 wheels. (though in fairness it hasn't been for a very long time) Its to the point its almost not fun to watch anymore. IF you have watched a few races in the season, and maybe a practice you can almost predict the finishing order based on the qualifying position. 2 weeks ago, when vettle started from the back, i told my lady, watch, hes going to finish 4th. "no way" she said. "its not possible" ... and an hour later... vettle ..4th. Now true, i didn't expect to see verstappen pass lewis, so that was unpredicted, but one pass and then an hour and no passing later he wins. Its just boring.

[Jolle]

I think you have some romantic view of the days of yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqFn_VUASKQ

the design department of Brabham of 1982.... two guys

[ChrisDanger]

Its to the point its almost not fun to watch anymore.

It being "not fun to watch anymore" has more to do with it being close to the pinnacle (mostly due to the very advanced and non road relevant aero) than the fact that it's not quite the pinnacle anymore.

If your complaint is that it's not fun to watch then adding more driver aids isn't going to change anything significant.

[notsofast]

Here's a related discussion from 7 years ago. The poster advocated for rules based on parameters rather than physical dimensions of the car. Such an approach would it make it possible to see cars with 6 wheels again someday.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9104

[zac510]

If a person has a narrow minded view about what F1 should be then they will be left disappointed year after year as they can only find fault with the sport.

[Jolle]

really though.. my entire point of this was... its no longer the sport where one day you might see a car with 6 wheels. (though in fairness it hasn't been for a very long time) Its to the point its almost not fun to watch anymore. IF you have watched a few races in the season, and maybe a practice you can almost predict the finishing order based on the qualifying position. 2 weeks ago, when vettle started from the back, i told my lady, watch, hes going to finish 4th. "no way" she said. "its not possible" ... and an hour later... vettle ..4th. Now true, i didn't expect to see verstappen pass lewis, so that was unpredicted, but one pass and then an hour and no passing later he wins. Its just boring.

I think you should watch a few old F1 races instead of the few interesting moments you see on YouTube. F1 is very close at the moment. “In the good old days” the difference between the first car on the grid and at the end was 10 seconds per lap. Drivers won a race with a lap ahead of everybody outside the podium.

If you want close racing, F1 is not the sport for you, it’s build on the fact if the formula where one car is better then another car. Just like most other sports by the way.

Many people keep referring back to the late 70ies and 80ies. Big teams were made up of less then 100 people, race team and factory!

If the pinnacle of Motorsport is “crazy ideas”, yes... we don’t have those anymore. But most of them came from holes in the rules.

F1, the tech uses, is at its all time high. The materials, the way that cars are designed and the efficiency is staggering.

[bucker]

I mean, yes, its true, they are certainly the fastest thing around any track. That isn't really debatable. But from my perspective, F1 is supposed to be the place where limits are pushed both physical and technological. F1 now does everything but. Traction control: gone; ground effect: gone; ANTILOCK BRAKES!!! gone; hydrualic suspensions: gone; and one measly movable aero surface. ( I want to see flaps moving on these things like a fighter jet)

I mean, we are fast approaching a point where road cars with all their technology are not so far behind F1 cars in the realm of impressiveness. The P1 does nurburgring in 6:43 and weighs 3400+ lbs. That's freaking phenomenal. And when you're done you can cut the air conditioning on. And sure a 2017 F1 car can probably pull an even 5 Minutes lap, which is just stupid fast, but how fast could it be if they used all the technology available to them? To me, the P1 is more impressive. Not as fast, but more impressive.

I mean, once upon a time you came to F1 because you might just see a car with 6 wheels, or a giant fan in the back, or some rule reading technical guru came up with some loophole they just annihilated the competition and pissed everyone else off. Now-a-days your lucky to see someone pass the car in front of them. And 6 wheels? Forget it. We get excited about T-wings now. Maybe to make it more exciting they should add another winglet.

And is the racing really any better for it? in 2010 4 drivers were eligible to win the championship in the last race. 7 years later, we have regressed. its almost as if there isn't true "racing" anymore. its more about who pits at the right time and who takes the right tires. Its disappointing to me that I can go to some other series, and see cars that may not be as fast, but are loaded with technology.

and then there is halo...

If you think that F1 cars aren't technologicaly advanced, than you are very mistaken.

[Facts Only]

Everything was better in the old days. Even nostalgia for the old days was better in the old days.

[wesley123]

I dont know.. where would you stop. traction control might help, but its not a replacement for a good driver. and a bad driver with traction control will still get beat by a good driver with traction control.

So then you'd agree that using TC or not is irrelevant.

id prefer to see cars that can take ridiculous lines in the corners at the "expense" of having traction control.

Traction control doesn't give you more grip in corners. It merely kills off wheelspin, which hurts acceleration as it will be TC limiting them.

and again.. antilock brakes. thats just basic technology.

Why would they use such basic tech in the pinnacle of motorsports?

Like with TC, ABS would actually make cars slower, as it limits the deceleration the cars can apply.
These tech is only useful in terms of tire wear.

how many times have you watched cars skidding across the grass/rocks with the tires locked? would not antilocks be beneficial to safety (even if only marginally)

Not all that often. I believe that Stroll was the most recent one. And the sole reason his wheels blocked was because of a failure on the right front tire. Drivers generally let go of the brakes in such situations, unless they are aiming straight for the wall, where ABS becomes useless as it will give up precious stopping power.

really though.. my entire point of this was... its no longer the sport where one day you might see a car with 6 wheels. (though in fairness it hasn't been for a very long time)

It's F1, not the world championship for bus drivers.

Its to the point its almost not fun to watch anymore. IF you have watched a few races in the season, and maybe a practice you can almost predict the finishing order based on the qualifying position. 2 weeks ago, when vettle started from the back, i told my lady, watch, hes going to finish 4th. "no way" she said. "its not possible" ... and an hour later... vettle ..4th. Now true, i didn't expect to see verstappen pass lewis, so that was unpredicted, but one pass and then an hour and no passing later he wins. Its just boring.

And how is anything you suggested going to change that?