Respect towards the stewards / better system?

[OneAlex]

A new grand prix, and almost a week after Verstappen's "controversial" penalty at the COTA, Max has finally issued a sort-of apology towards the stewards after quite a vociferous war of words and the F1 world seems (just about) ready to move on.

However, I feel like the last week has raised an interesting point.

Whilst many people still cannot agree whether his penalty was deserved or not, and manly will probably feel that F1 still has a problem when it comes to enforcing rules consistently and fairly, particularly track limits (or Seb in Baku...), I was somewhat surprised by the sheer level of vitrol directed towards the stewards, not just by fans but also by the Verstappen family.

Sky F1 made a point that under the previous owners, there would have been repercussions for the manner in which Max spent the entire week throwing a temper tantrum (and I say this as a Max fan), and when Seb launched into a sweary tirade against Charlie Whiting some also questioned why he wasn't penalised.

In most other sports the referee is supposed to be seen as a neutral authority that everyone is to respect; if you don't, you can be sent off, or banned from future games etc.

In F1 however drivers and teams seem to be increasingly vocal in their disagreements with steward decisions, attempting to undermine their rulings in the eyes of fans and the community in order to place pressure on them.

Should this form of protest be allowed? Or should there be a code of conduct towards stewards and repercussions for not meeting them? Does it help the image of the sport or hinder it to allow levels of protest? And when does that protest go too far?

And if there are problems with the current system of rules enforcement that impedes the authority of the stewards (such as the idea of Ferrari International Assistance...) what can be done to make it better?

Personally while I understand that drivers and teams are passionate in their immediate responses to rulings in the heat of the moment and enjoy hearing those reactions, I think when you're still refusing to back down days later and inadvertently spurring fans on to send death threats to stewards it's gone too far...

[3jawchuck]

No, lack of respect towards the officials, like in any other sport, should be quite harshly penalised.
I guess, these days, that isn't good for the show, when it seems the fans want drama and tension off track, don't really care what happens on track and don't care about sportsmanship and common decency.

[Maritimer]

Anybody who has actually played sports knows that there are plenty of idiot referees and that you can say whatever you want about them off the field. Can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen. Officiating has been a joke these last few years so I'm more surprised there haven't been more instances of drivers stating what they think.

[TAG]

Sky F1 made a point that under the previous owners, there would have been repercussions for the manner in which Max spent the entire week throwing a temper tantrum (and I say this as a Max fan), and when Seb launched into a sweary tirade against Charlie Whiting some also questioned why he wasn't penalised.

I find the timing comical given that we're in the same venue where last year Vettel told Charilie Whitting to *%#@ off. The precedence was set as there was zero in the way of repercussions from that.

[Phillyred]

The system is "good enough." You can't prepare for every situation or driver's attitude/personality when it affects them. In a way, to me anyways, it adds to the sport on the entertainment side of things.

[notsofast]

If any driver were to walk up to Charlie directly, and curse at him face to face, we would see the same result as in other sports.

Most sports don't ask the referees to make subjective judgment calls. Gymnastics and figure skating might be two. Do athletes in those sports vent their frustrations in public? I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

[strad]

In most other sports the referee is supposed to be seen as a neutral authority that everyone is to respect

In most other sports they are but in F1 the FIA has never been seen as neutral. NEVER

[dans79]

In most other sports the referee is supposed to be seen as a neutral authority that everyone is to respect

In most other sports they are but in F1 the FIA has never been seen as neutral. NEVER

I don't think they really qualify as experts either.

[jjn9128]

Simple, they need to hire Nigel Owens to sort them out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXoBNFOxlQM

I think in one of the press conferences/driver briefings Charlie Whiting mentioned that the stewards wont even look at an incident unless the drivers come on the radio to complain - which is why we get both drivers in any incident immediately whining over team radio 'he went off the track' vs 'he pushed me off the track'. Which is getting tedious.

Indy car seem to hand out penalties/sort issues faster than F1, and I wonder if that's because the FIA requires recorded deliberations and forms filling out in triplicate before a penalty can be applied, where Indy car seems to be more by feel - driver A pushed driver B/cut up driver B so has to give up the place - which happens almost on the same lap as the incident.

I think respect for the officials should be paramount. I didn't like Vettel telling Whiting to f*** off BUT also Verstappen cheated to gain/hold a position then tried to back Vettel into Ricciardo - so the stewards should have just told Verstappen to give up the spot before it became an issue. Likewise I feel Verstappen's comments about the steward(s) were over the line and his apology was insufficient (showing his age for once). Jos is not directly involved so is free to express his own opinion.

Maybe the deliberations need to be broadcast in the name of 'transparency' - perhaps after the race like the driver briefings?

Answer is I'm sure it could be more streamlined/fairer but I dunno how to achieve it.

[Sieper]

Here in NL we also swear openly and quickly. Mongol is very light here. We accept that without loose of face. Idiot is a bit harder, bit still hardly a medium swear word here.

Swearing is considered not chique, but most of us do. In other countries the morale is a bit different when it comes to using these words. It was also in a post race interview, provoked by the interviewer (the dutch one) and then later repeated in the english interview.

Max shoud stop swearing and personally attacking stewards. His apology was also very poor and his Joke about should have gone out the limits in Mexico for fun was also in Poor taste, not funny and quite frankly, the humor of a loser. Which I don,t think Max is. To me too that was a bit of a dissapointment as I am a big fan. I do agree that he was upset about the cota punishment though.

[dans79]

I think respect for the officials should be paramount. I didn't like Vettel telling Whiting to f*** off BUT also Verstappen cheated to gain/hold a position then tried to back Vettel into Ricciardo - so the stewards should have just told Verstappen to give up the spot before it became an issue. Likewise I feel Verstappen's comments about the steward(s) were over the line and his apology was insufficient (showing his age for once).

Imo respect is something that is earned, and maintained through thoroughness and consistency. I think the heart of the mater is that neither the drivers or the teams respect the FIA, stewards, Charlie, etc because they are so inconsistent.

Teams spend millions developing the cars, and Charlie can essentially deem anything illegal through a TD. If a team is break a rule they should be openly penalized, not given time to stop doing it. At times some drivers seem to get a free pass from the stewards, while others seem to have a target on their back.

If I had been Vettel last year, every other word would have been an expletive directed at Charlie. I would not have redacted my statements after the fact either. It was clear as day to everyone who wasn't a blind supporter of max or RBR what had gone down.

[Cold Fussion]

During the match referee is normally immune to abuse because the players can be sent off but after the match they have always been fair game. You could find hundreds of examples of Jose Mourinho or Arsène Wenger complaining about the officiating after the match, so why shouldn't it be allowed in F1. There's really only been one public instance of outright abuse to the stewards during the race and that was Vettel last year. Given how utterly incompetent F1 stewards and Charlie Whiting are, they frankly don't get enough criticism. Do you remember why we got driver stewards in the first place? In the 2007-2008 times the stewards were under intense criticisms because seemingly every race there was a completely different rule book with absolutely zero consistency, far worse than it is now. Imagine if the stewards were untouchable gods then.

[jjn9128]

During the match referee is normally immune to abuse because the players can be sent off but after the match they have always been fair game. You could find hundreds of examples of Jose Mourinho or Arsène Wenger complaining about the officiating after the match, so why shouldn't it be allowed in F1. There's really only been one public instance of outright abuse to the stewards during the race and that was Vettel last year. Given how utterly incompetent F1 stewards and Charlie Whiting are, they frankly don't get enough criticism. Do you remember why we got driver stewards in the first place? In the 2007-2008 times the stewards were under intense criticisms because seemingly every race there was a completely different rule book with absolutely zero consistency, far worse than it is now. Imagine if the stewards were untouchable gods then.

I think that's a bad example. Football managers who criticise the referee post match can be subject to touchline bans (depending on the strength of the criticism).

I don't think it's the stewards who are inconsistent, but it's the ever changing rulebook. If we are using football as an example, if the referee gives a throw in and Jose Mourinho complains about post-match it we don't get a sudden change of the rules for the next match where the ball can go out of play, but only if the player has one foot on the pitch side of the line.

In F1 if Horner and co moan about a stewarding call the next race we get, 'oh boys will be boys and cutting the track is fine'. Until a favourite driver is the on the receiving end then we're back to hardline enforcement of the rules. eg Rosberg vs Hamilton over the last few years, more people like Hamilton so when he's on the inside he is the one who can dictate the racing line, whereas Rosberg got penalties for crowding/forcing another driver off the track in similar scenarios. Would as many people complained about the America penalty if it had been Grosjean overtaking Hamilton? (unlikely atm with their relative pace and cars)

The press and broadcast journalists have to accept some blame for stirring these incidents up, but I think the FIA is trying to please the team bosses, who in effect are the ones making the rules in the strategy meetings. There's a certain fatigue about the engine penalties, which is affecting perception of driver standards penalties, they are distinct and should not be lumped together, which in my opinion they are.

[sosic2121]

Simple, they need to hire Nigel Owens to sort them out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXoBNFOxlQM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXoBNFOxlQM

I think in one of the press conferences/driver briefings Charlie Whiting mentioned that the stewards wont even look at an incident unless the drivers come on the radio to complain - which is why we get both drivers in any incident immediately whining over team radio 'he went off the track' vs 'he pushed me off the track'. Which is getting tedious.

Indy car seem to hand out penalties/sort issues faster than F1, and I wonder if that's because the FIA requires recorded deliberations and forms filling out in triplicate before a penalty can be applied, where Indy car seems to be more by feel - driver A pushed driver B/cut up driver B so has to give up the place - which happens almost on the same lap as the incident.

I think respect for the officials should be paramount. I didn't like Vettel telling Whiting to f*** off BUT also Verstappen cheated to gain/hold a position then tried to back Vettel into Ricciardo - so the stewards should have just told Verstappen to give up the spot before it became an issue. Likewise I feel Verstappen's comments about the steward(s) were over the line and his apology was insufficient (showing his age for once). Jos is not directly involved so is free to express his own opinion.

Maybe the deliberations need to be broadcast in the name of 'transparency' - perhaps after the race like the driver briefings?

Answer is I'm sure it could be more streamlined/fairer but I dunno how to achieve it.

+1

[jjn9128]

Been thinking about this, what about a driver review system.

So decisions are made by the stewards throughout the year like in other sports, i.e. without consulting driver/team representatives, e.g. 'you gained a place give it up' or 'you forced a driver off track give them the spot' or 'you moved under braking'...etc

We primarily get rid of the 5/10 second second penalties for driving standards issues and get the order rearranged on track rather than post race (obviously last lap events are tricky). Can't remember who it was who gained a place for cutting the track and kept it, by the time the 5 second penalty was applied he was more than that up the road... I think Palmer on Alonso in Monza?

BUT the teams can request a review of a decision, if they're correct they keep the review, if they're wrong they lose it for the rest of the year. 4 reviews a year or something. They have to give their telemetry/evidence for broadcast and the review could be shown picture-in-picture or something.