cylinder head help

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Venom
Venom
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Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 15:20
Location: Serbia

cylinder head help

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right, I started to recondition a 1.9td engine (peugeot) and I got little bit confused. When I started to clean the cylinder head, I recognised the wierd colour on valves.

It's like a mix of rainbow colours but hard to explain.

Picture
http://www.scplay.com/glava/PICT1315.JPG


I don't know the history of this engine but I assume it has previously overheated? This is the first time I recondition diesel engine so I don't know if that's ok...

btw. it's aluminium head and seems to be in good condition

any suggestion?
The trouble with the rat-race is that even if you win, you're still a rat.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Any decent reconditioning would involve changing all valves, valve liners, seals, springs and valve seats cutting. At first glance head looks very good but if I was on you I'd take it to be checked by pro and possibly flattened if necessary.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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Maybe the valve is starting to burn? An injector leakage causes excess fuel on the chamber that does not burn. This unburnt fuel ignites on contact with hot gases on exit. If this is the cause, the leakage is light. This is a photo of a heavily burnt exit valve:

Image

I am guessing a little here, as I would say 99% of diesel engine problems are injectors or valves! :) Tolerances between cylinder heads and valves are another problem, because they are much lower than in gasoline engines.
Ciro

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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Are they exhaust valves. It certainly doesn't look like overheating because that usually turns the valves white (exhaust esspecially)

How are the piston rings? If its blowing blue smoke when you touch the throttle it would suggest blown piston rings which might create that oilly look, also has it always been run on diesel? Perhaps used engine oil or chip fat could have affected it but I don't think so.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
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manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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What's the mileage of that car?

Anyway, if it has a lot of mileage I'd say that those valves look ok. If you're going to recondition the head chaning them as well as otehr actions I've already described should be done.

They've been overheating a bit but if the engine has a lot of mileage I'd say that's expected and head looks fine.

If you can, remove the valves and take snapshot of valve seats and edges of valve mushroom. Those two will tell you if there was burning or not.

Image

zac510
zac510
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

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I've never ever seen that on a petrol car.

But I have never owned a diesel car so for all I know it could be quite normal. I'd at least be taking it down to the shop for an inspection. If you're rebuilding a failed engine you should be getting it dipped and machined flat anyway so they should check them out for you.

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NickT
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Joined: 24 Sep 2003, 12:47
Location: Edinburgh, UK

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The valves look ok to me. It could just be that the inlet valves are manufactured differently having the stem welded to the valve and while the exhaust valves are machined from solid.

You would be extremely unlucky if you managed to overheat a diesel engine, but just to be on the safe side get somone to clock the head with a dial guage to make sure it hasn't warped. If it has it will need skimming flat again.

While you are having the head checked, get the valve guides and seals checked to and replaced as required. You shouldn't need new valves or seats unless they are badly pitted. Usually they just require re-lapping in carefully or gentle recutting if you can't get a uniform face on the valve or the seat after relapping.

Have fun :D
NickT

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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Don't use that head again.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Tom wrote:Don't use that head again.
Why not? :shock:

I mean perhaps it is useless but from pic it doesn't look even close to being useless.

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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Those are exhaust valves, they are bigger than the inlets and seeing as the inlet valves appear undamaged it suggests overheating, perhaps a result even of poor ignition timing, but thats not your majer worry. It looks as if you dropped it when you were pulling it out because there is a large dent in it, unfortunetly right where the head gasket sits meaning you will probably blow it soon. Also the pre-chamber on the left appears to have some deposits on it which could again be a mark of poor ignition timing. Has the engine been tampered with ('tuned') at all.

[IMG:152:130]http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/8605/head7rq.th.png[/img]

At the workshop I work at we had a brilliant example of a diesel being overdone. The prechamber fell out into the gap where a t.d.c. there is around 0.5mm and when the piston returned 100th of a second later, well surfice to say bad things happened.
Last edited by Tom on 14 Jun 2006, 18:05, edited 1 time in total.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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Tom: the overheating of the engine causes white valves, but what I was trying to point out was burning of the valve alone. I think this is different from overheating of the whole engine, but I have not your expertise on diesel engines, I guess, so I do not know if I am understanding you well.

This "valve burning", is what I believe normally causes carbon deposits as points (clearly visible in the picture I posted). Actually you have to "de-carbonize" the seats on most diesel engine jobs. On Venom picture those marks could be dents, as you say, or carbon deposits (the photo of Venom is reaaaally out of focus).

As you point out, those are exhaust valves, and there are several problems that can cause overheat of exit valves, besides bad timing of cam shaft:

- excess fuel
- bent valve guides or seats that impede the valve from seating properly and allows hot gases to exit during ignition.
- worn valve stem oil seal, that allows oil to flow down the valve stem and carbonize at the valve seat
- hydraulic cam followers that are not operating well and don't allow the valves to seat properly

I bet for number one, as number two to four are more "catastrophic" and normally cause heavy carbon deposits and hot points or cause them only on the seats. The photo I posted show that the crown of the valve has broken, probably by metal fatigue on the stem that finally brought the valve to touch the cylinder head. The heavy damage to the cylinder head is shown here, an example of the "bad things" you mention:

Image
Ciro

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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Ciro Pabón said:
On Venom picture those marks could be dents, as you say, or carbon deposits (the photo of Venom is reaaaally out of focus).
The big mark at the bottom cannot be carbon deposits, it is outside the combustion chamber. The one below the pre-chamber is deposits but probably won't affect the engine. I'm inclined to suggest that the rainbows are a result of the valves not in their seats correctly but for 2 together, seems unlikely.

Of course what we missed is that it might have been sooty before but when venom cleaned the head he removed a lot of it. How did you clean it anyway? with a diesel the only really safe way to do it is carefully scrape it off with a razor blade (same for petrols but few people do it) being careful not to scatch the surface.

Skim it anyway and if the marks come off you might be able to use it again, but it looks like it has a fair dent to me.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

Venom
Venom
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Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 15:20
Location: Serbia

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I was taking the valves off today and they are physically in excellent condition. The head is now being skimmed and ofcourse I will change stem seals and clean valve seats. I use some "stick" with rubber on the end to hold the valve and allow me to spin it against the seat while applying some paste to remove unwanted "things".

The milleage on car was showing 100k (miles), and the turbo is wasted as inlet manifold was full of dried oil. I also tried to spin the turbine with my fingers and it was sliding along the shaft. I will change turbo and see how it goes.

cyl. head picture to come when it gets skimmed
The trouble with the rat-race is that even if you win, you're still a rat.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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To me it still looks fine (I've seen and repaire many engines including diesels). That lower marked spots could be just layer of rust from cooling liquid and the one near muzzle aperture really isn't segnificant... (passenger car's engine heads aren't casted perfectly nor polished). I mean, most vulnerable places for overheating are those around the valve seats and they look almost perfect, especially thin zone between two valves.

I agree that it could be overheating from what I guess is poor mixture (too much air) Perhaps BOV wasn't opening? I’d also dare to say that failure happened quickly or if not than engine wasn’t used too much since problem emerged. Months of overheating would burn valves and there’s be pieces of them missing while these valves look like overheated but not for long.

Anyway, I'd like to see photo of head with no valves and cleaned with sand (what's the English term for this... sand being blown on object that is being cleaned? :oops: ).

Basically, I've seen much, much worse heads being repaired and used with no problem.

Anyway that's just my opinion based on poor info about this specific engine. :wink:

Venom
Venom
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Joined: 01 Feb 2006, 15:20
Location: Serbia

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The head is now skimmed and the little "eroded" thing won't be a problem because it isn't in contact with anything apart from headgasket.

Picture:
http://www.scplay.com/glava/skimmed2.jpg

Camfollowers (dirty for now) I cleaned them little bit with water and WD40 but they will shine later on.
Picture:
http://www.scplay.com/glava/PICT1325.JPG

Valves ( to be cleaned later on )
Picture:
http://www.scplay.com/glava/PICT1319.JPG

Express tool for valve seats :)
http://www.scplay.com/glava/PICT1324.JPG
The trouble with the rat-race is that even if you win, you're still a rat.