Mercedes and BAR cost cap

[carisi2k]

I was just watching a clip on Planet sail and it was mentioned that Mercedes AMG is working very closely with Ben Ainslie's America's cup team and I am wondering if this is something that should be looked at cost cap wise. Has it been included in to Mercedes cost cap amounts and are they using this relationship to break the rules of the cost cap.

I would be very interested to know if this is accounted for or something that Mercedes have not included on there calculations.

[jordanb]

https://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/32342 ... cht-racing

Shouldn't Mercedes be focusing on F1, not yachts?
While the project has an obvious commercial tie-up via Ineos, Mercedes is also keen to make the project work for the engineering benefit of the F1 team. The America's Cup is often known as 'F1 on water', and clear links can be made between the hydrodynamics that allow a racing yacht to "fly" on its foils in the sea and the aerodynamics that keep an F1 car pinned to the track.
......
Part of the reason the Mercedes team can afford to lend significant resources to the America's Cup campaign is thanks to Formula One's new budget cap this year. The introduction of a $145 million spending cap in 2021 forced the team to make cuts in its design and engineering departments, but by shifting staff to a non-F1 project outside the cap they can continue to work for the team.

"From a cost cap point of view, this team was bigger last year than you could afford in a cost cap this year and that means a certain amount of our resources is able to work on this type of project," Allison said. "As the rhythm of the Cup campaign requires it, hopefully it will intermesh adequately well with the corresponding demands that happen over in F1 land, so all the skill that we have here can be brought to bear."

[carisi2k]

That should still come under the budget cap but I was talking about the info flowing the other way back to Mercedes AMG F1 which means that Ineos team UK, Ben Ainslie Racing or whatever that team is called should actually be included in the budget cap because of this flow of information.

What it means is that this personnel needs to be released and no information connection between the 2 outfits.

[chrisc90]

Sounds very shady.

[dans79]

Sounds very shady.

The RB17 project is about 2 orders of magnitude more shady!

[dans79]

"From a cost cap point of view, this team was bigger last year than you could afford in a cost cap this year and that means a certain amount of our resources is able to work on this type of project," Allison said. "As the rhythm of the Cup campaign requires it, hopefully it will intermesh adequately well with the corresponding demands that happen over in F1 land, so all the skill that we have here can be brought to bear."

Not really a cost cap thing. This is the team wanting to keep people on the company books, but aren't important enough to the race team operations to let them work on the cars, and thus be considered under the cost cap.

Not to mention yacht/hydrodynamic design, has basically Zero correlation to f1 aero design, other than the fact that it's fluid dynamics.

[Dee]

"From a cost cap point of view, this team was bigger last year than you could afford in a cost cap this year and that means a certain amount of our resources is able to work on this type of project," Allison said. "As the rhythm of the Cup campaign requires it, hopefully it will intermesh adequately well with the corresponding demands that happen over in F1 land, so all the skill that we have here can be brought to bear."

Not really a cost cap thing. This is the team wanting to keep people on the company books, but aren't important enough to the race team operations to let them work on the cars, and thus be considered under the cost cap.

Not to mention yacht/hydrodynamic design, has basically Zero correlation to f1 aero design, other than the fact that it's fluid dynamics.

Boat design has everything to do with the new F1 rules, https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/porpoising.27337/

[f1jcw]

Sounds very shady.

The RB17 project is about 2 orders of magnitude more shady!

Indeed, it is very laughable of those crying foul when several teams have done the same.
Ferrari and Redbull have done similar.
Above other things it gives people employment.

[f1jcw]

That should still come under the budget cap but I was talking about the info flowing the other way back to Mercedes AMG F1 which means that Ineos team UK, Ben Ainslie Racing or whatever that team is called should actually be included in the budget cap because of this flow of information.

What it means is that this personnel needs to be released and no information connection between the 2 outfits.

I assume you also think the RB17 HyperCar project should also fall under the cost cap and increase the amount that Redbull was over?

[dans79]

Boat design has everything to do with the new F1 rules, https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/porpoising.27337/

As someone who has actually done hydrodynamic design i have to say you are mistaken!

for example, air is compressible, water on the other hand is for all intensive purposes incompressible (except for very extreme conditions). This single point is but one of the reasons why F1 and the AC are vastly different.

[wesley123]

I was just watching a clip on Planet sail and it was mentioned that Mercedes AMG is working very closely with Ben Ainslie's America's cup team and I am wondering if this is something that should be looked at cost cap wise. Has it been included in to Mercedes cost cap amounts and are they using this relationship to break the rules of the cost cap.

I would be very interested to know if this is accounted for or something that Mercedes have not included on there calculations.

Why?

[carisi2k]

That should still come under the budget cap but I was talking about the info flowing the other way back to Mercedes AMG F1 which means that Ineos team UK, Ben Ainslie Racing or whatever that team is called should actually be included in the budget cap because of this flow of information.

What it means is that this personnel needs to be released and no information connection between the 2 outfits.

I assume you also think the RB17 HyperCar project should also fall under the cost cap and increase the amount that Redbull was over?

I'm pretty sure that if it is within red bull that it probably is.

[Stu]

Why do some posters get offended at the question? Just saying…

AMG have a partnership with Ben Ainslie Racing (among others) there is the potential for a transfer of knowledge in both directions.
Ferrari are doing the same with both WEC and Haas.
RedBull have other projects (RB17).
McLaren have a lot of side-hustles(!)

[bosyber]

Why do some posters get offended at the question? Just saying…

AMG have a partnership with Ben Ainslie Racing (among others) there is the potential for a transfer of knowledge in both directions.
Ferrari are doing the same with both WEC and Haas.
RedBull have other projects (RB17).
McLaren have a lot of side-hustles(!)

Since one can presumably also bring in outside consultants, as long as their time is correctly included, this is more or less the same, legally, but using the extra size of the operation.

I guess as said above, it might be that it's relatively new for Mercedes, while others have been doing it a long time (and Williams made money from that for quite a while too). Bringing over whatever inspiration etc. that these people picked up in their non-F1-team employment, as long as it doesn't violate agreements with their other work, seems much the same from a labor-law perspective as being such an outside consultant.

Is there potential for shady stuff? Sure, and possibly intentional in some of those cases, but cross-pollination seems like a positive thing in general which might provide new perspective and ideas. It is also a good way to keep people who otherwise might have to be let go (all big three teams cannot just let people go just like that, being in EU countries), or who want to spend some of their interest and time on something else, see Newey for example, but same probably goes for Allison.

[mrluke]

If Mercedes hire an Engineer from Red Bull who brings some knowledge / learning to the team that they didn't previously have.....Do Mercedes have to show cost of Red Bull development in their cost cap?

If a Mercedes engineer works for a different Mercedes company on a different project, should that cost be part of the Mercedes F1 cost cap?