The end of war?

[manchild]

Perhaps we could stop endless talk about Schuey if we agree that he is "most successful" instead of "greatest" driver F1 of all times.

[Ted68]

Damn!!! Will you be changing your avatar to a waving white flag next?

Hey, I'm no fan of MS's for this fact: He is incredibly talented and focused, clearly one of the best ever, so why has he always felt the need to resort to illegal cars (Bennetton'94), ramming (JV '97), creative parking (Monaco '06) and so much more. It's hard to respect that sort of competition. And thats why no one, including himself, will ever be able to compare him to Senna, Prost, Mansell, Stewart, Clark, Fangio or Nuvolari, because the man never ran clean.

[RH1300S]

Phew - thanks for that Manchild

[manchild]

Damn!!! Will you be changing your avatar to a waving white flag next?

No, no... I think you've missunderstood my intention. Being most successful doesn't mean that he reached it doing things worth of respect. Success is described trough statistics, score, money, trophies... and all of those can be won by cheating and being unsportive.

Having in mind that all people who don't respect him agree that he has become most sucessfull (got most wins, points, titles... penalties ) I hoped that his fans would agree about that without insisting on calling him "greatest" anymore because every time we got into argument they've defended their oppinion using his success as a mean to justify why they think he is "greatest". Therefore, I agree that he is most successful but not a bit close to deserve being called "greatest" or even "great".

[Carlos]

I don't think that Manchild is white flagging the conversation, as much as, perhaps aknowleding that all opinions have been offered.

Socrates said " Only the dead, have seen the end of war. " And I believe that Dave Killens was suggesting a conclusion to this thread--- as everyone
interested has posted their thoughts and opinions.

[DaveKillens]

I like many Ferrari and Schumacher fans in this forum. I really don't like seeing things get nasty at times, when we discuss (argue?) Michael Schumacher and his actions. And I'm very sure most know each of our "opinions" on this man.
Thank you manchild, for offering the garland of peace. It's not the white flag, I've never seen manchild back down on stating his opinion of Shu. So let's please be rational human beings, all of us with one thing in common. Our love of this fantastic sport. Geez guys (and gals), we're supposed to be enjoying this racing stuff and the internet. I don't like it when anyone, be it a Shu fan or not, leaves this forum with a nasty taste in their mouth.
Michael Schumacher is definitely one of the greatest racers of all time, that's just a plain and simple fact. Whether he's the greatest, or someone with a tarnished moral compass lies within each and every person's opinion.
Once we get beyond the black and white of his wins and titles, poles, and other statistics, it comes down to just a person's opinion.
So let's please try to respect others in this forum, and try to be nice and know the difference between fact and opinion.
Thank you very much.

[mini696]

Yes the history books will show him as the most successful. However he is still an arrogant wanker, and that is how I shall remember him.

[pRo]

Good poll!

Now who voted for the greatest?

[Ted68]

Hey, now. The white flag comment was supposed to be humorous and nothing more. I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer. I also stated that he IS one of the best ever. No one can deny that, and I fully respect him as such.

My point was that with all the records he holds, many that will never be eclipsed, that there will be asterisks by these due to his less than sportsman like tactics.

I would have liked to see him, or any other sportsman in any other sport, achieve his accolades in a truly champion like manner. His talent is such that he need not have done the things he did. He still would have won titles and achieved records. He simply chose to take shortcuts.

[Tom]

I must admit IMO MS is a geniouse, he is so calculated, determined and creative, think of his first Japanese GP, he had a huge accident at 130R and was lucky to escape uninjured, he then jumped in the T-car, set up for his team mate and broke the lap record, not even lifting through 130R.

Saddly this determination brings out the worst in him aswell, the above incidents come to mind, aswell as Japan 2003, where he so nearly lost the WC on the last race through really crap driving brought on by pressure. Incidently this was the race when Sato found himself the victim of a divebombing hehe.

I will miss MS, but I could never like him as long as he was winning, which he always would be, that's why he descided to retire, because he knew that he could not win anymore.

Who knows, we may see him back in 2008 though. Till then, let the good times roll.

[Tp]

Perhaps we could stop endless talk about Schuey if we agree that he is "most successful" instead of "greatest" driver F1 of all times.

Why don't the Ferrari / Schuey haters regard him as the most successful and the Ferrari / Schuey fans regard him as the greatest

[Alexis]

Nice try to bring some peace here .

I don't say this topic is a bad idea but in fact it's completely useless. Is he the most succesful F1 driver ever? Of course he is! Statistics, trophy's etc. are the prove of that FACT . Whether he is the greatest or not that's an OPINION.

I don't really know if he is the greatest of all F1 drivers (never saw Fangio racing e.g.), but to me he is, that's my personal opinion . So i should have voted for "most succesful" and also for "greatest" :s. I don't care if you agree or not but everyone should respect what he achieved. I still believe he is more human than some of you think.

But what DaveKillens says is true, we shouldn't be argueing all the time. We could discuss some things but not the way we are now, the Schumacher vs Renault treads are way too long. We motorsport fans should resist together agains the world that turns our sport down because of pollution, danger, cost, noise etc.

I still remember Francorchamps 2004 when I was with my mate on a camping in Trois-ponts. We camped in a tent and right next to us were some English Renault fans. Saturday we drank some fine Belgian beers together around a small camp fire and talked for hours about F1 and about a lot of other things. Two Belgian Ferrari fans and 3 English Renault fans sitting around a camp fire having some beers. I will never forget that and I think it should happen even more! It's a perfect example of being open minded.

[captainmorgan]

i think the implied assumption of choosing "greatest" is also that he is the most successful. So it is a useful poll.

Except of course, when you look at the choice that way, since most successful is at least implicit in both choices, the poll really comes down to "greatest" or "not the greatest" Manchild pulls a fast one

[DaveKillens]

We motorsport fans should resist together agains the world that turns our sport down because of pollution, danger, cost, noise etc.

I still remember Francorchamps 2004 when I was with my mate on a camping in Trois-ponts. We camped in a tent and right next to us were some English Renault fans. Saturday we drank some fine Belgian beers together around a small camp fire and talked for hours about F1 and about a lot of other things. Two Belgian Ferrari fans and 3 English Renault fans sitting around a camp fire having some beers. I will never forget that and I think it should happen even more! It's a perfect example of being open minded.

Exactly. No metter your persuasion, it is all about enjoying yourself. I too have many fond memories of sitting by a fire at the track, with fellow race fan friends, having a great time.

[manchild]

Scheuy fans must like this avatar, its "greatest", its smooth, its cool BUT it was I who made it

So ask yourself - can you be Schuey fan and have one of my avatars?