Rotary / Wankel engine

[Irvingthien]

How many of you F1 fans have ever thought of using wankel engine in F1?if a 1.3 litre wankel engine in a Mazda could produce 228 hp, then a F1, 3 litre wankel engine that is light weight and high-tech made by the likes of BMW, Mercedes or Ferrari could reach an excess of 1000hp. The only problem is, it's very thirsty. This design of engine caused the oil crisis in the 70's.But Mazda must to have figured out a way to make the engine less thirsty ,that's why they now start selling Mazda cars with wankel engine for the first time since the 70's.well,i hope wankel engine is the next generation of engine in motorsport.

[TD]

Nah "Bernie" will squash that, not techical enough

[Steven]

I would really like to see one in real, since those have a very particular sound.

I've thought of that before, but regulations are clear, an engine now must have 10 cylinders, and must be bore-stroke, with max capacity of 3000 cc

It could be interesting though, since I think those engines (just thinking about the concept, don't know exactly how it looks like) would be made like a tube, so without the cylinder blocks taking huge space and weight

[NickT]

I have been doing a bit of research on the afore mentioned Wankel engine and I have found 3 informative sites that are well worth a look:

The first explains how it all works, the second and third give some good information about its evolution and history.

http://www.keveney.com/Wankel.html

http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/FE000352.htm

http://www.pistonheads.com/features/rotary/

Contrary to some people’s thinking a 3 litre race engine would actually be quite small with a very very low C of G, but I think any gains here would be lost with the amount of extra fuel a car would carry! Also I am not sure how fast one of these little beauties could spin, rotor tips were an issue in the past, not sure the would survive 18,000 rpm. But then again material science has moved on a long way.

[Steven]

hey I was just wondering here...
it seems to me that the Wankel concept is impossible to use as a diesel engine. The fuel is first compressed, and may only be ignited when the room for the fuel is at its lowest. Well maybe with some more research.. I don't know, would anyone have an idea how to do this as a self combusting engine?

Furthermore... I think, following the animation of this first website, it would need lots of energy to compress fuel that is injected for combustion to such a very low volume, compared to its normal volume. wouldn't it?

[Guest]

Don't forget that it was a Wankel-powered car that won Mazda Le Mans. Was it 1993?1994? Can't remember. IIRC it was a 4-rotor engine in the 787B. Very effective. SO effective it was banned the next year

In a 4-stroke, a cylinder has 1 power stroke in 2 revolutions. In a Wankel engine, a rotor produces 3 power strokes in a revolution. Therefore they have a 3:1 reduction mechanism to reduce this to 1 power stroke per revolution. This is why a 2-rotor Mazda 13B has a power signature like a 4-cylinder engine.

I think the 787B engine maxed out at around 13000rpm, meaning an internal speed of 4500rpm.

Getting really technical, maybe (I know it'll never happen) the FIA should regulate engines stating "not more than x power strokes per revolution" and "not more than y volumetric displacement per revolution" and hence we could work out a turbine/wankel/piston/stirling/whatever engine equivalence formula.

For Mazda/wankel fans, check out
http://www.pettitracing.com

They stuff 20B engines (2000cc, 3 rotors) into the RX-7 (normally running the 13B, 1.3l, 2 rotors). Sweet

[Reca]

It was 1991, drivers Gachot, Herbert e Volker Weidler, they completed 4923 km. The engine of the 787B was a 4-rotors (654 cc x 4), my source (an article on a recent magazine) indicates 700 hp @ 9000 rpm and max torque 590 Nm @ 6500 rpm.
Here a pic of the engine and the characteristics (slightly different figures from the other source) : http://www.mulsannescorner.com/mazdar26b.html.

[akbar21881]

if they somehow make 10 tube for the rotor to be put in will it be considered as 10 cylinder?

but if I'm not mistaken FIA states clearly the the piston has be circle in diameter,so basically this rule out any other engine type I guess....

[Mclaren11]

Why are Rotary Engines not used in F1. I see no disadvantage to using them. They have fewer moving parts than an internal combustion engine, they produce the same amount of power with a smaller engine. the only aria where the internal combustion engine would be superior is the amount of development that it has versus the amount of development that a rotary engine has.

[Irvingthien]

well,the technical regulation of F1 has stated that engine used in F1 must have 10 cylinders and 3000cc. If i'm not mistaken, roary engine is the same as wankel. Just as i said before, a 3 litre rotary engine can produce more horse power than a 3 litre engine.

[Monstrobolaxa]

Well....there's one disadvantage...lets go back a few years...in 1958 a portuguese company tried to build a Formula 1 engine......and also wanted to race with treir engine and car at the 1958 Portuguese GP...they bought their car from Cooper...and build a rotary engine (the first portuguese rotary engine)....they ended retiring after free practice because the car was simply too slow....and the engine wasn't reliable....even after spending 2 years developing it!...the main problem was the center piece....the rotor....it cracks!....where did I get this info? My grandfather was the technical director of the problematic F1 team.....hehehe.....

Well I know that material technology has been developed in the last 50 years....but in any case I still think the rotor is a little fragile....and the rotary engine I believe drinks a little bit more.... ...and like Irvingthien said....regulations.....

Notice - What I call a rotor might not have this name...I know how a rotary engine works but don't really know the name of its parts....so if someone knows....just let me know

[Guest]

what team monstrobolaxa?

[NickT]

Yo Monstrobolaxa,

Check out the following thread on Wankle Engine in F1?..

viewtopic.php?t=359

I placed a link to a wicked site that has some animations on how the engine works with details of components to.

Cheers

[Mclaren11]

Sorry I didnt Know Rotary engines as Wankel Engines.

[Monstrobolaxa]

Thanks NickT....well....I did get the rotor name right... LOL

interesting site the one with the animation....hummm......after reading about it....my grandfather only talks about the rotor cracking....but....the bearings on that kind of rotor....might also bring some problems....