Improving road conditions

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f1.redbaron
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005, 23:29

Improving road conditions

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I have a very simple question which, I'm sure, doesn't have a simple answer...the question is, what can be done to improve the situation on the roads? I don't know about you, but I'm getting a little tired of the traffic jams, accidents, etc.

Every day, I see at least one accident, one moron who doesn't grasp the concept of having his/her lights on during night, a person who is yapping on the cell phone while driving 10mph under the limit in the fast lane, people who don't understand how does a flashing red work (or the 4-way stop), etc. Now, please, don't get me wrong. I understand that most of you are thinking - "road rage". No! Actually, I'm pretty docile when it comes to driving, I try to let people into my lane, I don't cut people off, I've never given anybody the finger yet (tempted, but never I did it), etc.

Then, there are roads themselves. No offense to the Americans, but their highways must've been designed by idiots...the on/off ramps are on the left side which means that slow traffic is joining/leaving the fastest lane of the highway. I see people pulling over on the left side when getting stopped by the police. Why? Why put yourself at such a risk? I've never seen this in Canada...

With more and more people getting their licenses, this problem is can only get worse. Add that to the fact that so many new cars are being sold on daily basis, I can't see any realistic solutions. So, I'm wondering, what, in your opinion, can be done to improve the roads (Ciro, this should be right up your alley), and stop the idiotic behavior on the roads?


P.S. Just for the record, I'm not saying that I'm an uber-driver. I have driven faster than the speed limit (very rarely too fast on the roads themselves), and still do. I talk on the cell phone, etc. So, I'm guilty too, but I know that I've never been into an accident (OK, 9 years of driving experience is not much, but still...) much less caused one.

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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As much as I'm a racing fan I find traffic to be extremely dangerous and poorly organized even in the most advanced societies. Everything is based on sanctions and very few things are done in the area of prevention.

First thing I'd do would be to physically separate all tracks, prohibit overtaking, lower speed limits to at least half as much as they are now a most of all treat those people who cause incidents same as people who get drunk and go out to fire several rounds of ammunition in their backyards. Injured or dead person is injured or dead person regardless if it came from a car or a bullet. It is not a weapon that kills but human behavior so we should sanction human behavior regardless what means it deals with (car, gun, knife, fist...).

I'd also promote public transportation and ban private vehicles from the cities as much as possible. Trains, metros, buses and trolleys should become dominant mean of transportation in the cities with more pedestrian car-free zones. No vehicles near schools very low speed limit for heavy vehicles etc. Highways should have speed limited on 60 kph, regional roads 40 kph for passenger car while buses, truck and other commercial vehicles should should have even lower speed limit... and even than we'd still have fatal accidents.

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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As you both comment - an important part of road mishaps is human nature and incompetence, including rage, inattention and lack of ability to drive. About the comments about congestion - many urban roads are overburdened, and even when new roads or lanes are added, there is still no solution to congestion. When our crosstown expressway was built, the constant radius off ramps have armco barriers on the inside rather than the outside and several have negitive cambers on the outside . When I called both city and provincial authorities, my comments were politely recieved, but nothing has been done to remedy this in over 10 years. I don't think that all road engineers are exhibiting a high level of dedication to good design. London UK has made many inway roads to the city toll roads, and this has relieved a lot of congestion. Accordingly I think the problem is - too many cars.

West
West
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Joined: 07 Jan 2004, 00:42
Location: San Diego, CA

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I'd say too many cars. People want their independence. We need a communist society that makes everybody take the bus.

I dunno what roads ur talking about but in SoCal offramps and onramps are on the right side of the freeway.
Bring back wider rear wings, V10s, and tobacco advertisements

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Cars are deadly. Period. Much deadlier than firearms. Period. People want to go around armed but that is highly prohibited even though carrying a loaded gun doesn't represent 1% of danger as driving a car trough the city at 50 kph.

If we were talking about participants in traffic as solely adults that drive than a victims wouldn't completely innocent since their decision to participate in traffic by divining a car would mean that they were aware of risks they took.

But what about children?

Their parents full of ego and wish for "independence" will chunk them in the car and children will become exposed to danger without wishing to be exposed. Anyone catching my point? What about pedestrians from 7 to 77 who are not endangering anyone as they move using natural mean of transportation - the legs?

I guess independence West mentioned come in same package with human rights so what gives the right to those who drive to endanger those who don't drive? It should be like pacifists say about the war - if someone is so keen to go to war, please go out in some distant field or desert and beat the --- out of yourselves but leave alone those who don't want to have anything to do with it. So it should be - if you want to drive a vehicle that weights 1000 kg than drive it where a mechanical failure or your bad judgment won't injure or kill someone even at low speeds.

Back to gun-car parallel...

Fire a bullet towards bus station full of people or at group of kids crossing the street and you'll injure or kill one or two - hit any of those with car at 50 kph and you'll injure or kill much more. So, if guns are so highly prohibited why are cars so easily available to almost anyone?

Bottom line is that apart from ego 99% of the people who own cars don't really need them that badly at all. So since we're talking about car as necessity vs. preservation of life as necessity I say let's take care of the priorities and preserve life rather than ego's, selfishness and status symbols. As West said - too many cars.

I know many people won't agree with me but I also know many people have dealt with traffic accident only as something they've seen on TV (same principle would be if we talked about cancer, aids, poverty, hunger, torture, war).

When you see with your own eyes how kid dies slammed with a bike that strays off the road into pedestrians, when someone close to you gets injured or you dies in road accident than you change your mind and my mind 10 years ago would also favor independence rather than what it favors now. Unfortunately, I've seen too much of it and it changed my opinion dramatically. I don't blame at all those who don't understand it because I didn't understand it back than so I know how it is.

We take the right attitude towards certain issues only when we experience them and that is a very, very high price to pay not only for ourselves but also to other people who might become victims of our unconsciousness.

Blessed (and rare) are those who somehow get it all together in their head without being driven by unreal viewpoints full of youthful illusions as I think most of us are. If I'm thankful for anything than it is for the fact that I've done no harm during time when I was unconscious of the reality and took every clear part of any public road to drive as fast as I can.

Never again. Racing is for racing circuits, not for public roads.

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tomislavp4
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 17:07
Location: Sweden & The Republic of Macedonia

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No serious problems with trafic jams in my city. About accidents, there is maybe one accident in 3 months or so but there are some people that buy cheap cars just for fooling around. Half of them ar not even 18! They buy a car from the junkjard and drive it with 80kph (20-30 year old cars) I can´t even figure out how the cars are staying together... but however they r lucky enough not to kill someone. I remmember, few weeks ago someone hit a old woman and just ran away. And guess what, it was one of those cars I described above.
I´m 15 and I stick to my moped but some of my friends are allready "grown up" so they drive cars few times a month!!!

Here is an idea: there could be a speed limiter in the car wich is connected to the GPS so it knows on which road you are and the speed limmit on the current road and it won´t let you pass the limit. Just an idea

West
West
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Joined: 07 Jan 2004, 00:42
Location: San Diego, CA

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The thing about guns is that they are, in most cases, used to scare or kill people in terms of selfishness. You will hardly hear about a case where a car was used as a deadly weapon.

Racing in the street is retarded. It took me a long time to see that. I did not street race myself but I used to stay up in the early hours of the morning to drive around the city, looking for a quick race or two. Then when you hear about innocent bystanders getting killed, you realize it's not all fun and games. Besides, too many ricer Civics are out there that sound and look terrible. And they're not very fast either.

As for traffic, too many people have licenses, when it's obvious most people don't know how to drive. There are too many people out there who don't know how to use the turn signal (or they keep it on), don't give the right of way, or drive at a pace that is either extremely fast or slow. Sometimes when I hear about drivers doing illegal racing and getting killed, it's time for the Darwin Awards - just one less car on the road.
Bring back wider rear wings, V10s, and tobacco advertisements

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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West - Here it's a standard joke that cars would be a few hundred dollars cheaper if they were built without turn signals - Here nobody seems to use them . On a personal note - I can hardly tolerate driving with the current level of the average driver's lack of skills, attention and discourtesy.

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f1.redbaron
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005, 23:29

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West wrote: I dunno what roads ur talking about but in SoCal offramps and onramps are on the right side of the freeway.
I guess I shouldn't have been so general...I'm talking about I-75 in general, although I've seen it on some other ones, too. I've been up and down I-75 several times, and the stupidity behind the logic of putting on/off ramps on the left, never failed to amaze me.

One in particular that bothers me...close to where I live now - and here's why.
First of all, the safe speed for it is 35mph (according to the city). The problem is that the lane that takes you off the highway and onto the ramp is very short, so you're forced to do one of two things:

1. Brake before you get off the highway and force everybody to slow down (especially during the rush hour).

2. Hold off on your braking until you get off the hwy, but then be prepared to brake hard in order to drop the speed from about 75 to 35. Not a safe option especially during the bad weather (perhaps, this could explain the cross on the side of the road - one of many from what I hear).

Once you're off, you find yourself doing a 270 degree turn, with concrete barriers on either end, only about a foot away from the far end of the lane.

Then you have traffic which is getting off the highway from the opposite direction, trying to dart across the 3 lanes (because they need to make a left turn)....one of which is yours. Perfect place for accidents, as I've seen it twice so far.

btw, the 35 mph is too fast (I can't believe I'm saying that). Normally, I would expect the city to give me a safe speed not the maximum one, because even at 40mph I get a little worried.
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I purposely didn't say anything about limiting the # of cars, but that is, kind of, where I was going with it. I would do something like what China did with their populations when it started getting out of hand. Put pressure on people to have only one car, offer incentives, etc, and if the second car (or whatever the limit is) is necessary, make the owners pay.

I remember a while back when my family had 4 drivers and four cars. As much as I was happy to have a car when I got my license, I now look back at it as a stupidity.
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As for the speed limits, I don't think that I would agree with you, Manchild. I know that the highways themselves are more than capable of sustaining speeds of more than 130 km/h, and yet the limit is 100/107km/h (Canada/US). Besides, IMO, it is the relative speed that kills you, not the speed itself...by that I mean that if everybody is driving 40km/h or 150km/h, you better be doing it too.

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f1.redbaron
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005, 23:29

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This video is both interesting and funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOtHjvYG3Qk

(Stephen Ladyman on Top Gear)

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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My Moma always told me never to trust anyone calling themselves 'Ladyman'
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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f1.redbaron wrote:I have a very simple question which, I'm sure, doesn't have a simple answer...the question is, what can be done to improve the situation on the roads? I don't know about you, but I'm getting a little tired of the traffic jams, accidents, etc.
This is the proverbial good question. Like all engineering answers, it has many parts. I’m copying and pasting things I’ve written before: I tried to be brief, I swear. ;)

Traffic is a public service that is treated differently of other public utilities. If your home's electric voltage is low because there are too many people connected, or if you get an eternal busy tone on your phone because your telephone exchange is overwhelmed by calls, you won't display the patience you have on traffic jams.

The worst traffic jams in the world involve no cars: arguably, the Panama Canal or the Jamarat Bridge during the Hajj, in the picture below, dispute the first place (the "gray river" is the people).
Image
To add insult to injury, they occur day after day at the same spots, contaminating the city, wasting a sizeable amount of the oil used in transportation, costing you money directly from your pocket, converting the city you live on, your very "vital space", into an ugly thing.

Figures for 4 designs at a particular crossing in Bogotá. You can see the intersection as a huge machine that uses lots of fuel: 18.000 gallons per day vs 13.000 gallons per day after final design. Figures given are for the 15 peak minutes of the day: notice how you can increase distance travelled by 200%, increase speed by 300% and reduce fuel and contamination to 60% of the do-nothing option.

Code: Select all

Parameter		  Units	Do nothing	1st	  2nd		3rd 	Final
Total distance	Miles	2,818		3,090	4,026   4,541   4,681
Total trips		Trips	3,399		3,381	4,625	5,119	5,363
Ttl delay/mile	Hrs-veh	374		  367	  139	  133	  112
Speed				Mph		 6.3		  7.0	 16.8	 18.4	 20.4
Ttl fuel used	 Gallons	536		  481	  422	  415	  383
CO2 emissions	 Gr/mile	339		  314	  246	  241	  232
After/Before images. The white dots are cars.
Image

Let’s face it, we have been raised to believe that traffic congestion is unavoidable, an “act of God”. One reason for this "public submission" is that the tools to avoid traffic jams have been developed during my life, not before. It's my personal opinion that not too many cities "do it right". Actually, you should have elected officials with clear goals about it, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

Apparently, people recognizes that traffic congestion is a tremendous waste of resources for a country but they are resigned to live with it.
Image
Another reason is that other public utilities are "compartmentalized" through valves and switches, while roads aren't: A traffic jam at a particular intersection can spread quickly to the entire local sub-network. Imagine that an electric surcharge in Brussels could bring low voltage in Paris and you’ll get the idea of the problem of integration of the system. Traffic networks have a "no prisoners taken", or bimodal approach: either they are OK or they are terribly wrong.

Let's talk only of urban networks, rural ones are different. I use examples taken from Bogotá's situation, because in my town we have tried every trick that I know. The case is that you have a fixed network and a fluctuating demand and you find that you have excess of demand only at peak times. What can you do?

Well, to answer the question, you can do two things about it:

1. Attack the origin of the traffic congestion

It has the best benefit/cost ratio, but it takes longer to implement. There are three main tools available:

- Zoning laws
- Full urban planning
- Mandatory traffic studies

Your first problem usually resides in the zoning plan of the city. This plan takes the form of a precise map that shows, for each lot in the city, what you can build on it. It also gives you "densities", or the importance of constructions allowed at each zone, being either 100 floors buildings or two-story houses.

Territorial Ordering Plan for Bogotá (yes, I know, funny name: probably it's my translation). I followed SimCity's conventions ;): green for residential areas, blue for commercial ones and orange for industrial zones, the darker the denser. In gray you see the "urban equipment", like airports, electric stations, schools, hospitals and the like. I used bright green for the parks and protected areas.

[iMG:349:490]http://ciropabon.googlepages.com/BogotaZoning.jpg[/img]
Then you use your second tool: a full urban planning. You use a transportation model, the standard being "The Four Stages Method". You use TransCAD, VISUM, Tranus or something similar. First, from areas, densities and personal interviews or census forms, you deduce the "trip generation" at each area. Second, you estimate the movements between areas to reach an "origin-destination" matrix, showing how much people moves from one area to another.

Origin-destination matrix for Bogotá. It shows how many trips are made from a zone to another zone of the city.
Image
Third, you calculate what transportation they use (car, bus, metro, whatever, we call that the “modal-split”). Fourth and final, you use some rules to “attribute” that people to the roads. This is your traffic model for the city. You end knowing the capacity you need at each road and you incorporate the design of each one in your “Territorial Plan”.

Bogotá’s main road network. The corridors have been calculated under the assumption that over 70% of all travels will use public transit and that the city will stop growing in 2040. Cities this size without public transportation require a much larger road network.
Image

I believe Bogotá’s transit network has been an engineering success mainly because properly designed, exclusive transit lanes using heavy buses are much more effective than carpool or light metro lanes, carrying up to 300.000 people per day and costing roughly 1/8 of a rail system. On congested links you need a metro system.

Bogotá's Transmilenio heavy bus lines. Notice how the transit uses the center of the road. There are bikeways on the sides of the highway (the stars are Christmas decorations).
Image

Let me remark how important is for the City Council to approve the traffic plan. The Territorial Plan states the size of all the main avenues, parks, transportation network and the such, and it is a law of the city: the Mayor can’t spend the money otherwise.

Finally, you must use mandatory traffic studies for any new building or traffic work. You use NETSIM or VIS or similar software. Whenever a builder wishes a permit for a mall, a warehouse or a modest size building, he has to present a study that shows how many people will “attract”. He has to calculate the impact on the congestion of the adjacent streets and pay from his own pocket the modifications needed. This way builders look for lots that don’t require that much infrastructure and they take somehow into consideration the “cost of traffic”. You can check my website, if interested.

I will continue later, if there is no oposition, with: 2. Attack the traffic jam itself. I have to sleep and this is already way too long. :oops:
Ciro

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
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Ciro - If I should visit Bogota in March - I will look forward to using the Public Transit system . The Trans-M may well be the finest Bus System on the Planet - Just as Columbian Coffee is the finest Beverage in the World. :wink:

I have read that the routes are superb and over 4 different size buses are used - each size calculated to suit the passanger volume of a particular route - I have also read that fares are minimal - perhaps I will forego renting a hotel room and just live on the TM. :wink:

I will certainly post my impressions on f1technical.

Regards Carlos

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

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The best thing that I can think of where I live (Atlanta) is to make a mandatory drivers school. Not a racing school or anything, just a defensive driving course that teaches you the basics of how to drive a car. Through all kinds of conditions and have a VERY strict testing system. Hell, I probably shouldn't have a license, but I have racing experience so I think highly of my driving skills. Ego I know. Someone mentioned that, I definitely guilty of everything I gripe about, but I do it alot less than others.

Hey West. Question. Have you gone down to Qualcomm and raced there? I heard the parking lot drags are alot of fun, and you can run anything out there. I never went because my truck is no sports car, but it is just fast enough to be dangerous!

AeroGT3
AeroGT3
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 23:22

Re: Improving road conditions

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f1.redbaron wrote: IThen, there are roads themselves. No offense to the Americans, but their highways must've been designed by idiots...the on/off ramps are on the left side which means that slow traffic is joining/leaving the fastest lane of the highway.
What? No they're not! I haven't been to every state in the country, but I've never once seen that. Every off/onramp is to the right :?