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f1.redbaron
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005, 23:29

Unreal

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In 2006 Shell managed to post $25 billion (yes, 9 zeros) in profits.


But if that doesn't make you mad, perhaps the following quote (taken from the article) will:
However, analysts warned that the current year could be tougher for Shell following a fall in the price of oil.
Tougher year? Wow...
But I kinda liked that word "warned".

Anyways, here's the article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6319577.stm

EDIT:

Part of the reason for such high profits is Mosley's Q3 format! :D

pyry
pyry
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Joined: 04 Jul 2004, 16:45
Location: Finland

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why should that make anyone mad? guys knoe how to run a business
four rings to rule them all

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

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It should make you mad because:

They make a ton of money off a lie
They are the only business to turn astronomical profits every quarter
They perpetuate the myth that we are running out of oil
They exploit this into charging you more money
Not to mention that they are crooked businessmen. How? They lie to you and tell you they are running out of a vital commodity when they aren't, and then charge you more and more using that lie as justification.

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f1.redbaron
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pyry wrote:why should that make anyone mad? guys knoe how to run a business
This has nothing to do with knowing how to run a company. They didn't get those profits purely because their CEO is a genius...It has to do with them increasing the prices of gas from 90c/L to $2.00/L in a matter of couple of hours (just after the hurricane Katrina hit the coast), all because they (all oil companies) saw an opportunity to prey on the weak.

Recently we saw the price of oil go down to under $50, and, yet, I was still paying around $2.29/gallon - the price I was paying when it was around $60 (though, to be honest, for a few days it did go down to about $2.09).

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ketanpaul
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Joined: 08 Mar 2005, 18:50
Location: New Delhi, India

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n 2006 Shell managed to post $25 billion (yes, 9 zeros) in profits.


But if that doesn't make you mad, perhaps the following quote (taken from the article) will:

Quote:

However, analysts warned that the current year could be tougher for Shell following a fall in the price of oil.
OMG :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: My next business venture is certainly gonna be oil :lol: :lol:

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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Every fibre of my being is telling me to stay away from this thread, but the lemming in me can't! :lol:

As it happens I work for an oil company (before you flame me for that let's just say I am rather low in the pecking order... just a techie, and at the refining and marketing side of the business, not the drilling part!)

A few FACTS to correct some of the comments made in the thread;

Most of the proven reserves in the world are not owned by oil companies, they are owned by nation states (e.g. Saudi, Iran, Russia, Venzuela, etc.). So oil companies buy much of their crude oil on the open market and it is the supply:demand balance that determines the price of oil, not the oil companies.

As far as I am aware Shell has NEVER made any statement about the world running out of oil - I am happy to be corrected if anyone can provide me with a verifed and factual reference to that issue. Furthermore, an oil company would have little to gain by making such a statement as that would de facto mean that the end was in sight for the existence of the business... just think what that might do to the share price!
Not to mention that they are crooked businessmen. How? They lie to you and tell you they are running out of a vital commodity when they aren't, and then charge you more and more using that lie as justification.
In fact the company mentioned above has an inglorious record for OVERstating their proven reserves - completely the opposite to what was mentioned in the quote... when the truth emerged the share price flopped (just like I said it would above!)

Some facts; The world is not running out of oil (yet) - in fact it is more accurate to refer to "oil equivalent" nowadays (includes natural gas and non-conventional oil such as oil sands, gas hydrates etc.)....

BUT, the era of cheap oil is gone. Most of the oil found now is difficult to find and difficult to produce = expensive... so the oil price is likely never to return to those halcyon days of $10/bbl (although perhaps as soon as a viable alternative is found).

It should make you mad because:

They make a ton of money off a lie
They are the only business to turn astronomical profits every quarter
They perpetuate the myth that we are running out of oil
They exploit this into charging you more money
Because oil is a globally traded commodity it is impossible for a company (any company!!) to influence the price of oil. It is largely influenced by OPEC (the C stands for countries by the way!!) and political events - just look at what happened when the gulf war started! It is also influenced by natural events such as Katrina.

@F1redbaron; you attributed the increase of gasoline price after Katrina to an opportunist response to a catastrophe. In fact the cost of oil went up because the platforms and refineries in the gulf of Mexico area were shut down... as a consequence of the hurricane. Supply and demand... that's the answer!

I know that the above message will not convice the conspiracy theorists, but oil companies are under the very watchful eye of anti-trust authorities and the price of gasoline, in particular, will go up when the oil price goes up and come down when the oil price comes down... the relationship is more or less perfect and for a very good reason - the companies can't afford to be sued!

happy to discuss facts, not opinions!
Mike

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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...just as an addendum (more fuel on the fire, so to speak :twisted: )

ExxonMobil put Shell to shame... they made $39billion... the biggest profit ever posted by any company EVER!!

I guess my message would be spread the love :wink:

(I just wish some of it would filter down to my level of the business!)
Mike

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f1.redbaron
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005, 23:29

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Mikey_s wrote:
happy to discuss facts, not opinions!


Well, I've had a pretty long answer all lined up, but due to your last sentence, I decided to hit the delete button, simply because neither you nor I can get into this discussion due to the lack of more in-depth knowledge. You may think that if you read the company manual that you do have all the knowledge of the innermost workings of your company, and how it impacts the global economy, but that can't be the case. Please, don't understand this as an attack...I'm just saying that based on what you said about how high up a corporate ladder you are.

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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F1redbaron,

of course yo are correct, I'm not sure anyone knows the inner workings of their company at the highest leve. However, I Do know what makes the oil markets tick and I DO know that most companies (and all of the majors) work on the basis of pricing refined products on the basis of so called "current cost of supplies" - therefore, when the price of oil goes up the cost of the finished products goes up, irrespective of whether it is made using cheaper oil... similarly when the cost of oil drops the price of refined products drops.

Furthermore, whether or not I know the innermost workings of the company I do know that the oil companies are not the ones pulling the strings on global supply/demand balance. Sure oil companies make a shedload of money when the oil price is high - I didn't hear a lot of sympathy when the oil price was $10/bbl a few years back - why didn't they pull the strings then?

The market is affected by a whole bunch of factors, but the analysts are looking East (China) and seeing growth in demand increasing at an incredible rate, refining capacity is going to hit a crunch in a couple of years - hence all the oil companies investing billions in increased capacity and all the easy oil is found.

As for gas prices of $2.29 a gallon... come over to Europe; you'll learn why most of us drive small cars! (we pay approximately 3x your price - the difference is tax!!). If you want to get the price down, don't buy oil - if enough people do it the price will drop (unless of course the Chinese decide to buy it instead!).
Mike

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f1.redbaron
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005, 23:29

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I find it hard to agree with you when you say that the oil companies are just honest businesses and that they have nothing to do with supply...it would be like saying that De Beer's is not stockpiling the diamonds and that they are releasing everything they dig-up.

I do know (or so I've read) that the demand for oil is high, and our capacity to manufacture gasoline (i.e. refine the crude oil) has reached the maximum, especially knowing how no new refineries had been built in the US since the 70's.

But I cannot agree with you when you say that they are just the middle-man. It just doesn't make any sense when oil companies post record profits. Those profits are an indicator that somewhere along the way, oil companies have found a way to purchase the gas cheap enough and sell it at the price which gave them those profits - or in simplest of terms, somebody is ripping me off at the gas station - and I don't think that it is Hugo Chavez as it wasn't him whose "company" posted $25 billion in profits.

Now, you say that the oil companies are under the gov't watchful eye, so profiteering is out of the question...I disagree! US congress is looking to launch an inquiry to determine how is it possible that a consumer is paying that much for gas (relatively speaking) while the oil companies are posting profits. That, to me, sound like the politicians are being retroactive and not proactive, meaning that the "watchful eye" must be the Hubble telescope.

Also, last year, the Canadian gov't had launched an inquiry of their own, where they found that certain gas stations were guilty of charing unreasonable prices (during Hurricane Katrina), however, they decided not to follow through with any charges as they couldn't tie those actions to the parent companies...

Ironically, that gas station owner will still have to surrender his profits to the parent company so, regardless, oil companies will benefit from such actions.

The bottom line is this...with those profits, Shell et all, are not charging reasonable prices. I my opinion, had Shell (or any other company) devised a new and improved (i.e. more profitable) way of refining oil, and that it was this new way that brought them the extra profits, I would've had no problem with it...but when all the major ones (British Petrol, Exxon Mobil, etc) all start posting record profits, in my opinion, something is wrong.

Cheers

P.S. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and I'm not locked up in my basement with the aluminum foul around my head, thinking that the gov't has implanted a tracking chip inside of me.

:D :D

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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F1,
As with any business area I am sure that there are a few skeletons in various oil company closets, but due to the strategic importance of oil in the west the regulators scrutinise their activities very carefully.
no new refineries had been built in the US since the 70's
The principle reason that no/few refineries were built was due in part to excess refining capacity and the low price of oil for a long period - who can afford to invest with oil between $10-20/bbl? Of course that situation is changing now with high oil prices and the refining capacity crunch, but it'll take a while to come on stream.
But I cannot agree with you when you say that they are just the middle-man.
Of course Shell, ExxonMobil (XOM) and the other majors have exploration and production as a maojor part of their business, but XOM purchases more than 50% of its oil on the open market - thus when the oil price is high their raw material costs them more too - so they make $$$ on the oil they produce, but also spend more $$$ on the stuff they have to buy. It would be surprising if an oil company were to post low profits when the oil price is high, but MOST of the oil reserves in the world are in the hands of governments, and cartels such as OPEC determine the global price of oil (and increasingly gas). It is OPEC that decides to cut production when the price of oil starts to drift lower, or increase production when they determine that it is starting to hurt the economy of their major markets. On the OPEC website you will see the 11 nations that determine the global price of the oil we rely on;
The OPEC MCs coordinate their oil production policies in order to help stabilise the oil market and to help oil producers achieve a reasonable rate of return on their investments. This policy is also designed to ensure that oil consumers continue to receive stable supplies of oil.
... doesn't that give you a nice warm feeling!!
Ironically, that gas station owner will still have to surrender his profits to the parent company so, regardless, oil companies will benefit from such actions.
There are several different business models for filling stations and most of us don't know which is which when we fuel up;

Company Owned, Company operated; the oil company owns the whole shebang
Company owned, contractor operated; the company owns the hardware and pays a contractor to run it on a margin/litre or gallon
Contractor owned, contractor operated; ... but normally selling only one brand of fuel, lube

independent; just like it says on the tin.

So depending which of the above models is in use at a given location the gas station "owner" may, or may not have to give up some of his profits.
The bottom line is this...with those profits, Shell et all, are not charging reasonable prices. I my opinion, had Shell (or any other company) devised a new and improved (i.e. more profitable) way of refining oil, and that it was this new way that brought them the extra profits, I would've had no problem with it...but when all the major ones (British Petrol, Exxon Mobil, etc) all start posting record profits, in my opinion, something is wrong.
I can tell you that refinery technology is changing; the US is currently installing cokers to produce more light fuels from residual materials, Europe is (still) installing cracking capacity and there is an increase in colking over here too - although the product suite is changing due to the increase in diesel cars, so Europe has a rapidly increasing gas oil production emphasis. oil companies are investing like hell in gas to liquids projects, alternative fuels technology (solar, wind, hydrogen, biofuels)... all very nice, but of course they are still basically oil companies and the oil price is high, so inevitably they make money. However, they are also spending (investing) in the future; Shell, for example, has budgetted $22-23 billion (yes 9 zero's :shock: ) for capital expenditure for 2007.. finding more and developing better ways to exploit oil.

Like I said above; it would be surprising if an integrated oil company posted low profits when the oil price is high. However, oil is a roller coaster business and people rapidly forget the fact that, notwithstanding the oil crisis of the 70's and the gulf war, oil has (in normalised currency) been at, or below $30/bbl since the second world war.
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

In my view oil is too cheap (see the thread Tom started called Contraversal[sic]) and we (all of us) keep dumping our trash into the atmos for little, or no cost - Our societies are addicted to oil and for the foreseeable future we are stuck with it. Government policy needs to change to get rid of our addiction and develop alternatives. unfortunately the US has Bush (an oil man) and most Western governments are too addicted to the tax revenue from oil to change that in the short term. People don't voluntarily change to lower gas consumption cars, they're nice and powerful... except when the cost of owning one starts to hit us in the pocket. The bottom line is that MOST of the profits are going into the middle east (which does have cheap oil which it sells at a high price), Russia, Venezuela, Nigeria, Brunei, etc... the oil states...

All in all, it is an obscene amout of profit, but the oil majors are riding a wave at present that is not always this high, and most, if not all, of them are also investing heavily for the future. It is incumbent on everyone to reduce oil demand - I'm not perfect, far from it in fact, but I walk to work, drive a fuel efficient car (approx 50mpg, 6l/100km) and follow my family around switching off lights! I'm certain there is more I could do, but I don't coz I'm lazy too!
Mike

mcdenife
mcdenife
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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f1.redbaron wrote:
Now, you say that the oil companies are under the gov't watchful eye, so profiteering is out of the question...I disagree! US congress is looking to launch an inquiry to determine how is it possible that a consumer is paying that much for gas (relatively speaking) while the oil companies are posting profits.
I think that assumes the bulk of the profit comes from what is sold at the pump. I dont think that is the case.

mikey_s wrote :
Government policy needs to change to get rid of our addiction and develop alternatives.
If by that you meant in terms of our energy/car dependence, then I agree. But its not that simple because we are not additcted to oil, we are simply dependent on it, for almost every aspect of our lives. Think about it and review everything around you, at home, work, play, travel and you will find it difficult to find an aspect of your daily life that does not depend, in some way shape or form, on oil. And I mean from the clothes on your back to your bicycle, your car, your rollerskate/blades/ski's, where you walk, where you sleep, what you sleep on, what you sit on, when you crap, what you crap in. when you eat, what you eat, when you wash....if you wash. what you drink, what you drink with....heck even alternative technology/equiment have to be made somehow. After reviewing this you will begin to understand why goverments wil go to almost any lengths to ensure there is a secure supply. The price of oil is almost secondary. Companies have been known (to put it mildly) to pay vasts amounts of money to lease blocks just to go prospecting for oil that they may or may not find (at least not in commercially viable quantities). No I dont begrudge them vast profits.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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Well, I think that plainly f1.redbaron is right on that, Mike.

You say that 11 countries govern oil price through a cartel and blame them. So, am I wrong by thinking that you agree that the price is rigged? However, you explain that this price fixing is not made by Exxon, who is an "innocent bystander".

Mmmm... let's see. Opec. This comes down to: Algeria, Angola, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Venezuela.

Of them, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, UAE, Kuwait, Indonesia, Nigeria and Iraq are under the benevolent rule of dictatorships put in place directly after open and public talks with the american, dutch or british government, if not defended by their armies (like Kuwait, definitely split by the british army from Iraq in 1961).

For example (I gave up after a finishing reading Nigerian history, most entertaining):

Kuwait: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... r_Protocol
Indonesia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... of_Sukarno

We could count Iran (remember the 28 Mordad revolution that took down Mosadegh, also in 1950's?) but they made a revolution in the 70's.

We could count Venezuela (remember Pérez Jiménez?) but Chávez did the same in the 90's.

We could count Lybia. Ooops. Same there with this guy Gaddafi and old King Idris. All right, we have Algeria left (I won't mention the colonial war there, why?).

Look, I am starting to see a pattern here. Must be the Illuminati. Where is my tinfoil hat? If you don't use it, you become a Ferrari fan... (look at f1.redbaron, poor guy... ;))

So, to argue that the OPEC countries are independent is a hard proposition to swallow. As for the peak oil, well, an image is worth a thousand (or in my case, many thousand! ;)) words.

1956 prediction
Image

2003 reality
Image

I've already posted this two graphs from Wikipedia, you tell me what they mean. I really don't know how accurate is this picture: notice that in the last graph, the sharp decline to the right is also a prediction. Of course, it is made by aggregating the predictions for the countries depicted (the country names show when each one reached its peak), but...
Ciro

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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... I knew I should have stayed away from this thread! :wink:

I'm not saying the price is or isn't rigged, I was trying to say that it isn't the oil companies that set the oil price - it's set by the traders and dependent upon the global (and to a lesser extent regional) supply:demand balance. XOM, and the others are undoubtedly very big organisations, but their activies are simply not big enough to directly influence the global oil price (leastways without adversely affecting their own share price) - if one company wanted to create a shortage the obvious way to do so would be to reduce production, then they shoot themselves in the foot because they aren't producing - it just doesn't work!

... and don't get me started on peak oil :twisted: just about every prediction on when the peak will "peak" is proven wrong by the time we get there - improved technology for recovery and the move to non-conventional oil pushes the quantity of "oil equivalent" onwards and upwards. Having said that, it's undoubtedly a finite resource, but as someone once said; the stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.

It really is not a question of running out of oil, more a question of how much are you prepared to pay for it; the era of $10 oil "peaked" years ago, oil sands from Alberta only become economic above about $28-30/bbl (and there are some trillions of bbl oil equivalent there!) and so on... when the cheap oil is gone we must get used to paying more at the pump (and when we fly), but there's a shedload of oil (equivalent) at $60/bbl and even more if it's $100/bbl - havng said that, no one is going to start looking for $100 oil when the price per barrel is $30!

(I'm now making another promise to myself not to get dragged further into this discussion!)
Mike

mcdenife
mcdenife
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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ciro wrote:
Of them, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, UAE, Kuwait, Indonesia, Nigeria and Iraq are under the benevolent rule of dictatorships put in place directly after open and public talks with the american, dutch or british government, if not defended by their armies (like Kuwait, definitely split by the british army from Iraq in 1961).
Nigeria has a democratically elected government. and whilst I agree opec control supply and therefore indirectly prices, I really cannot see why you find OPEC countries being independent a hard proposition to swallow. Or do you mean to imply that oil companies set/fix oil prices indirectly?
[/code]
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.