40% Scale F1 Car

[TeamFFX]

Hi guys,

I am new here so I thought I would introduce myself (I am registered on another forum as TheScaleF1Project so I may already have had contact with some of you ).

I and a few friends are doing a research project (for and funded by ourselves, mainly because we are incredibly bored) to design and build a 40% scale F1 car controlled remotely by a laptop and wheel/pedal system.

The original intention was to build it to comply with the 2009 regulations, but there is so much confusion over those at the moment that we have reverted to 2008 (we are aiming to meet the as many regulations as *realistically* possible, but that does not include 40% engine displacement anything that makes the project unviable).

We are building the car from scratch, along with the engine and transmission, using as many "components off the shelf" as possible (taking from robotics, motorcycle, karting, and in some cases automotive component suppliers), but custom designing and building where we need to.

The design will be done using a CAD solid modeler (Autodesk Inventor) and other design apps (Mechanical Desktop / AutoCad Mechanical), with FEM/CFD analyses in Fluent, Ansys 11, and COMSOL Multiphysics.

Chassis and bodywork mold (or mould ) creation will be done by a rapid prototyping company, from which we will make a female mold in fibreglass, and then the final objects in carbon fibre reinforced plastic (but NOT to meet crash tests at 40% - there is, after all, no driver).

It is going to be a long and expensive project, but everyone involved is very much enjoying it. We are currently in the "project definition" phase, workng out the most economical and viable way of making each component/item for the car.

I'm sure I will have lots of questions as we go along, so I hope to be able to tap into the combined knowledge on this and other forums!!!

Cheers,

Martin

[ss_collins]

This sounds great if you do it properly with a minature V8 I'll put it in the mag!

[TeamFFX]

Excellent

We are doing a miniature V8 - but we're not sticking to 40% of 2.4L (which would make it 153cc) - it will be a little larger than that (we need between 25 and 35bhp).

We're looking at using motorcycle pistons and as many other components from other engines as possible - hopefully the only things that will need custom manufacturing are the block and the cams...

ECU will be the MoTec M800. Injectors and coils from McLaren Electronics.

Cheers,

Martin

[Jagboy]

Awesome! I'm somewhat familiar with the topic of 2008 scale models as I designed a 20% model on SolidWorks. I'm in highschool and did this project solo so I wasn't able to produce it but it was definately an incredibly fun experience. The model is available for download at http://nuhairi.net/kalut/ as the arc-c1 and the F1T thread about it is located at viewtopic.php?t=3206&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45 I wish you the best of luck in your project and please keep us updated!


JB

[TeamFFX]

Hi JB,

Your project looks very interesting! Out of interest, did you do any CFD/FEM analyses on the models or is it simply (bad word, nothing like that is ever "simple" I know...!!) designed to meet the dimensional requirements?

Thankfully (asthetically anyway) the CDG wing seems to have been scrapped for '08 (looking at the latest regs anyway, published in March this year). I have to be honest and say that the whole concept just doesn't do it for me.

I use SolidWorks quite a bit, but in the end decided to go down the Inventor/Mechanical Desktop route for this project, for several reasons. I am an experienced Max / Maya user, and "keeping it in the same stable" has several benefits as regards data sharing. As and when I can, I plan to create some renders using Max and V-Ray (with custom V-Ray materials) - although 3D renders are not a priority...

40% is very large scale, but for the aerodynamics to have effect, it has to realistically be at least that. We have several possible wing/sidepod designs which we are currently running CFD simulations on. Eventually we will manufacture the best 3 and try them out in the "real world" model.

The biggest challenges we face are:

Engine design
'nuff said

Transmission design
Designing a (relatively) small 7 speed sequential gearbox with a low profile is a very daunting task (we have discarded the reverse gear for the utter pointlessness of it in a 2m long model that will not "race" against other vehicles...). We are looking at dismantling and rebuilding (recasing) a motorcycle gearbox at the moment, but it may be that we have to start from scratch. If we do we're going to go the whole hog and try a seamless shift 'box.

The diff will be a production racing diff, as will the clutches.

Miniaturising the hydraulic system
(actually a pneumatic system in this car) - just plain difficult!

Suspension
Although we will probably use modified adjustable hydraulic dampers from ACE (http://www.acecontrols.co.uk/hdfc.asp), the packaging of the system is going to be tough. We are also looking at maybe using adjustable gas springs (so we can have a reasonable amount of adjustment without changing out the spring - which is fine for a real F1 team, but with the costs of the project already, we can't have 10 different sets of springs custom made).

The anti-roll bar will be a blade (as per champcars) rather than a torsion bar spring (again, getting torsion bar springs for the suspension and anti roll is unrealistic as they would have to be custom made this small).


The "easy" parts are the brakes (kart discs and formula ford calipers and pads), the bodywork (a long slog making the molds, but not technically too difficult), and the steering (servo controlled).

The electronics are slightly harder. MoTec engine management will be used, and OpenECU units will be used for the transmission and other control units (programmed using Simulink autocode generation). A custom micro-PC running the QNX real time OS and custom software will be built for the data management (Tx ad Rx of radio and video signals, managing the received control data, sorting and encoding the sensor data to be sent back, logging *all* the data into a MySQL database as part of the system, management of the radio modems etc etc).

I think that just about covers things for now! If anyone wants to know anything let me know!!

Cheers,

Martin

[mep]

As I already posted in Jagboy's topic,
am I curently building a F1 scale car in scale 1:4,5.

The last time I said this is some time ago so I am now
further in building it.
I have the 22cm² engine mounted and the gearbox completed
and I am curently working on the structural parts of the car.
I have choosen this scale because there are cars and parts
to buy in this scale and you are able to race against others who bought their car.

My car will be aerodynamically and in original dimensions.
I am always open for questions and discussions.

I wonder why you don't build that car on scale 1:1 and let
a driver sit in.
It wouldn't be any more expensive or difficult to build than a 40% model.
Or build it in scale 1:5 like my to easily get cheap parts
like dampers, brakes, clutches and so on.
And you can race against the others.


You want to build a V8 engine who is working and producing a good
amount of power and want to buy most of the parts?

HaHa
I don't think that will work.

I was also searching for a engine for my car who fits into the tight
body of a F1 car and started to plan my own engine.

But now I am happy that I found a engine for my car
because constructing and building it for your self is very hard.

Now I can concentrate on the car.

But I don't say that it is not possible to build a V8 in 40% scale.
But you have to know your stuff.

Build every part exactly so like you want to have it
and don't buy it.
A bought part will never fit.
Except ventil feders, piston rings, carburetor and maybe a few little things more.

[TeamFFX]

Hi MEP

I wonder why you don't build that car on scale 1:1 and let
a driver sit in.

2 main reasons:

- Safety: building a monocoque that is stiff enough is something I will leave to real F1 teams...
- We actually considered buying a Dallera GP2 car and work on the aerodynamics from there, but where's the fun in that?

Or build it in scale 1:5 like my to easily get cheap parts
like dampers, brakes, clutches and so on.
And you can race against the others.

Aero is a little irrelevant at that scale (well, not irrelevant, but the dynamics of the vehicle change drastically.

A bought part will never fit.

I have to disagree there. If the design is based around the "bought parts", ie they are treated as an integral part of the design concept rather than a "bolt on" extra, then the system (be it engine, suspension, transmission, whatever) can be built *around* those parts, rather than just jamming them into an pre-conceived design...



M

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, you COULD buy a 1:1 (yes, full scale) Ferrari F1 car by Drinkstuff. Unfortunately, they are not producing them anymore (license problems).

It costs a "mere" U$ 24.000 dollars. It's made of carbon fiber!





You COULD try to contact Drinkstuff, to see how much will they charge for a 40% model, perhaps one made by a "discontinued" factory to avoid the licensing requirements (Jaguar? Minardi?). I know, I know, it's not as fun as making your own. But hey, imagine the faces of your friends!

http://www.drinkstuff.com/products/prod ... ar+Replica

[mep]

TeamFFX wrote:
Aero is a little irrelevant at that scale

Aero is related to the speed of the car not directly to it's scale.
Modelplanes also fly.
Ok this comparison lags a bit.

A 1.5 car can reach a speed of over 100km/h and
at this speed it starts to get a big air resistance.
Ok downforce is not so importand because you need it at low speed and the car is relatively heavy to it's produced downforce.


Ok bought parts can fit.
But If you only want to make the blog you better buy a complete engine.

I don't understand where the problem is to construct and make
the hole engine?
You can design every part you want to have it.
Of course you can copy a special engine in it's dimensions and even take
a few parts of it.

But You sound more like mixing the parts of different engines like taking the piston from engine A, the ventils form B, crankshaft from C.

Building a engine is a project for it sellf.
I think it's easier to make a car in1:1 save for a driver than
building a engine.
See the Formula student cars.
They all only make the car, and they know what they are doing.


But anyway don't let you discourage.
By the way how much persons are you, how much time will you spend,
how long do you think will it take
and most importand how much money will you spend?

[TeamFFX]

You COULD try to contact Drinkstuff, to see how much will they charge for a 40% model, perhaps one made by a "discontinued" factory to avoid the licensing requirements (Jaguar? Minardi?).

It is an idea, but to make a 40% model, new plugs and then moulds have to be made, so it could turn into a horrendously expensive process... I imagine the ones they used to sell were made from original moulds.

Look cool though "hey guys, come see my new wheels..."

Aero is related to the speed of the car not directly to it's scale.
Modelplanes also fly.

True, but with R/C planes aerofoil design is relatively unimportant - lift can be generated from not much more than a peice of wood if angled correctly...

But You sound more like mixing the parts of different engines like taking the piston from engine A, the ventils form B, crankshaft from C.

Sorry if I was confusing. We are not going to mismatch bits from different engines. We will select an engine, salvage as much as possible from it, and then manufacture the rest ourselves.

I think it's easier to make a car in1:1 save for a driver

Hmm... It's not the complexity that worries me - the process for a small tub would be the same as for a large tub, just scaled up in dimensions and thickness.

For a 40% model though, we will not need to do 12 layers of carbon fibre with an aluminium honycomb in the centre. And we will not need an autoclave the sixe of a transit van to cure the pieces.

Essentially, in a 40% model, the outer "skin" can be reasonably flimsy (the tub not, but the sidepods and engine cover etc. can be).

I wouldn't sit in a carbon tub that I made in my garage at 150MPH

By the way how much persons are you.

We are currently 6, and probably expanding. As mostly electronics guys, we are learning the "mechanics" as we go along (and having a lot of fun in the process!!)

how much time will you spend,
how long do you think will it take

Realistically a couple of years.

and most importand how much money will you spend?

More than that Drinkstuff car costs

Cheers,

M

[Jagboy]

I wasn't actually able to do any analysis on the car for two reasons. First, I just don't have the computer power. Second, I put the finishing touches on the car only a couple days before it was due. It was mainly an exercise in learning SolidWorks and a good one at that. I did the whole car in 2.5 months and it was my first real, complete project.


JB

[TeamFFX]

Ah ok. Well it looks good!

Are you moving onto other things now or will you refine the car?

PS: I changed the "bad work" in my last reply to you to "bad word" which it should have been. That was a typo - I wasn't insinuating that it was bad work!

Cheers,

Martin

[Jagboy]

I'm designing an RC chassis for someone right now and after that I'll start next year's design. It was a good project and it served its purpose so I'm not coming back to it. I think it has potential but I really don't have the knowledge to make it a formidable track machine. My next project's a bit simpler.

Bernat has some amazing models that he built at http://www.bernimodels.com/ Go there for some inspiration when you need it. Nice guy too.


JB

[abarth850]

With the right technical knowledge, and some trial and error, every mechanical part can be made, but what about the tyres, they look to me like the most difficult part to find in 40 %, and anything but a grooved slick would look silly.
40% of 2.4L is 960cc, not 153cc

[FW 21]

Bridgestone provide scale tyres for the windtunnel, but I guess they would be expensive and hard to get.