Bad bad comparison

[Belatti]

[-( [-X [-( [-X [-( [-X
http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Tech ... risons.asp

So they claim they are the fasters cars in the world (in what track did they achieved 240mph??? maybe that was in ovals before 2007)

and...

2.2s in 0-60mph acceleration? jaja... no way
http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Tech ... _Specs.asp
That would be 1.23Gs if constant acceleration exists (wich doesnt) and maybe 2Gs of max longitudinal acceleration.

Now tell me, how fast does an F1 car (with traction control, lighter and more powerful according to them) accelerates? 0-60mph in 1 sec??? huhh?

BS

[Saribro]

This is what McLaren claims about the MP4-22:
0-60mph / 0 - 96kph 2.3 seconds
0-100mph / 0 - 160kph 3.6 seconds

[mahesh248]

dammm that is fast guys ... and no way the american cars are faster ...

[Tom]

I wouldn't be sure the American cars are slower. Think about the formula for acceleration:
Accelereation = Force / Mass
The American cars have more mass, I'll give you that, but they also produce more force. Their turbocharged methanol engines will produce more torque and combined with the full slick tyres they run that torque will be put onto the ground much better producing more force.
Its not unreasonable to assume an American car could be 0.1 of a second faster than a Formula 1 car to 60mph, or it could even be a rounding 'error' as the American time might have been 2.24... rounded to 2.2 and the Mclaren time 2.26... rounded to 2.3.

There is almost certainly a bit of oneupmanship here though as can be expected. I'm pretty sure an F1 machine can get to 240mph on the right circuit.

[DaveKillens]

dammm that is fast guys ... and no way the american cars are faster ...

And can you defend your position with facts and figures, or just fall back on ethnic and racial prejudices?

Personally, I find no discrepencies with the numbers. It must be remembered the Champ Car is an integrated downforce chassis, and has lower drag than a F1 chassis.

[bar555]

They maybe faster in straight but how can they beat an F1 car in high downforce tracks like Monaco

I mean it is good to acheive top speed and good accelaration but that does not make you move around the track faster .You need grip to keep you in track ( especially in "sharp" corners ) and without it you are simply slower .

THAT IS WHY F1 CARS ARE THE FASTESTS VEHICLES ABLE TO CHANGE DIRECTIONS IN THE PLANET

[PNSD]

I think we should clear things up here.
Its some word confusion...

A Super Aguri is fast.
A Ferrari is quick.

Quick is the application of speed. There is a difference between fast and quick.

An F1 car is the quickest race car in the world.
However, the fastest, a Champ car or IRL car may be faster. Nascar race cars can also easily reach 240mph remember.

[Jersey Tom]

And who gave any of you guys information on F1 vs ChampCar tires, gearing, torque curves, car setup, aero package, etc?

I'm sorry, but without numbers you can't make blanket claims like

2.2s in 0-60mph acceleration? Shocked jaja... no way
http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Tech ... _Specs.asp
That would be 1.23Gs if constant acceleration exists (wich doesnt) and maybe 2Gs of max longitudinal acceleration.

Really irritates me. Just because its "F1" doesnt make it high-and-mighty, untouchable god of racing. Its entirely possible ChampCar is quicker off the line, or slower. Might have more downforce or less (though likely no where near as aerodynamically efficient).

Gearing is huge for off-the-line acceleration. You have no insight into that variable. I'll add, 0-60 in 2.2 is definitely very do-able.

ChampCar slicks are going to have a little more mechanical grip than a grooved F1 semi slick (assuming everything else is constant.. which it isnt).. and off the line mechanical grip is everything.

Traction control in F1.. does not give you any MORE traction. Just lets you use it without spinning wheels as often.

It's entirely possible depending on setup that a Champ Car could corner at a higher rate than an F1 ride, though for the same amount of downforce the drag-limited top speed of the F1 car is likely higher.

[Belatti]

I'm sorry, but without numbers you can't make blanket claims like

Without numbers? Doesn´t these numbers explain enough?

Champ car claims: 1565 lbs and 750HP
F1 is: 1320 lbs. and reaches easily 750HP

F1 weights 85% and has the same power... and the same acceleration?

- Tom: Torque to wheels can be the same (F1 engines may have less torque but higher RPM, when reduced through the gearbox you get torque)
- Dave: The Champ car lower drag doesn´t count too much in 0-60mph acceleration. At 60mph drag is not sooo big. PS: [-o< please don´t bring racial discussions to this thread, noone was talking bout that.

NOW I FOUND THIS WIKI LINK!!! :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champ_car
that quotes:

0-60 mph time: 2.6 sec (with traction control), 3.1 sec (without traction control)

Now, Jersey, don´t get mad, but

Traction control in F1.. does not give you any MORE traction. Just lets you use it without spinning wheels as often.

And so you loss less time... and accelerate faster (Or quicker?)

MY BIG CONCLUSION: CHAMP CAR EXAGERATES ITS NUMBERS IN ITS WEBPAGE

[donskar]

I REALLY do NOT mean to throw gasoline (or methanol) on the fire, so please treat this as a question about this quote:

"Champ car claims: 1565 lbs and 750HP
F1 is: 1320 lbs. and reaches easily 750HP

F1 weights 85% and has the same power... and the same acceleration?"

Among many other factors, torque, rather than HP, has a significant impact on acceleration, and the turboed Champ cars in all likelihood have a big torque advantage. No?

BTW: interesting topic. I think we can all agree at least that the respective cars are very fast, well designed, and driven by very brave and talented men and women.

[PNSD]

I might add my post about quick and fast stem from the mouth of Jacques V and Martin Brundle.

A few years back in F1racing magazine, Jacques mentioned something about him getting annoyed about people using quick and fast in the wrong context or something lol.

[Jersey Tom]

Belatti -

Power to weight ratio does not determine acceleration. Peak power does not determine acceleration. When people ask, "Which is more important.. power or torque?".. the answer is neither.

All other things being equal, lighter cars are easier to accelerate. All other things are not equal though.

Technically, to put in enough energy to get from 0 to 60 in 2.2 only requires an average power input of 156hp. Of course the other things required to make this possible would be outrageously impractical.

Peak power and peak torque can only tell you so much. Average power and torque output and gearing is extremely important. You don't know either of these, so you cannot comment on which car is faster in a straight line.

The limiting factor really is the tires, since both of these cars are traction limited out the gate. One might suppose that with more footprint area, the ChampCar tire will have more grip potential. But even then, we don't know anything about construction or tread compounds for the two tires (even by the same manufacturer) to say anything.

Does ChampCar exaggerate numbers? I'm sure they do. Everyone does. Like I said, just because its F1, doesn't mean its untouchable god of racing. Just because ChampCar is based out of the US doesn't make it crap.

Now what would be cool.. is if TopGear did a little comparison (since they seem to enjoy such things). Bring an F1 team, a ChampCar team, and an IndyCar team to their track. Let them set the car up how they please. Get a couple good drivers (Hamilton, Bourdais, Franchetti?), have em take a couple hot laps of the course. See how they stack up.

[Ray]

Now what would be cool.. is if TopGear did a little comparison (since they seem to enjoy such things). Bring an F1 team, a ChampCar team, and an IndyCar team to their track. Let them set the car up how they please. Get a couple good drivers (Hamilton, Bourdais, Franchetti?), have em take a couple hot laps of the course. See how they stack up.

Not a good idea. They NEVER have ANYTHING good to say about American made cars. Even the Z06, which blew everyone out of the water, was a horrible car to Clarkson. One of the complaints that made the car a bad choice for the street was, 'the steering wheel is on the wrong side'. What? Jeremy himself even said he hates coming to the States, and condescendingly calls us the 'Colonies'. So they wouldn't be anywhere near unbiased or objective. They would probably call it complete crap if it was even within a half second in any performance comparison. That show is for humor only, not for real world testing.

And Belatti, I know you love F1, as do I and everyone on here. But just because ChampCars aren't made by Ferrari, McLaren, or Renault doesn't mean they are overweight, underpowered, slow pieces of junk unable to remotely come close to F1 in performace. You don't know a damn thing other than what is on that website. You have no dyno numbers, average torque or horsepower readings, tire construction and data, gearing in specific gears, for either F1 or ChampCar like Jersey Tom said before. So how can you say that they are lying about the performance of their respective cars? You can't. So come up with some real numbers please before you call BS.

And PNSD is right. NASCAR took a car out to the Salt Flats and went 244 MPH. Yes in a straight line, but for a series that get almost no respect even here in the States by most people, it's pretty badass to me.

http://www.redletterdodge.com/2007/10/1 ... ge-part-1/

[donskar]

Well done:

"And PNSD is right. NASCAR took a car out to the Salt Flats and went 244 MPH. Yes in a straight line, but for a series that get almost no respect even here in the States by most people, it's pretty badass to me."

And that with the aerodynamics of a slightly rounded brick. (Full disclosure: I can not watch NASCAR)

Anyone recall what the slightly modified Honda F1 did in a straight line in that special run a year or two ago?

And does anyone remember when the Indy 500 was an F1 championship round? No, it did not prove anything then, but I wonder if one of those incredible computer game companies (or Mclaren's simulator) could shed some light on a comparison of contemporary examples?

[Carlos]

Jersey Tom wrote:
Now what would be cool.. is if TopGear did a little comparison (since they seem to enjoy such things). Bring an F1 team, a ChampCar team, and an IndyCar team to their track. Let them set the car up how they please. Get a couple good drivers (Hamilton, Bourdais, Franchetti?), have em take a couple hot laps of the course. See how they stack up.

I posted this inspiration to the BBC - Here's the e-address
http://www.bbc.co.uk/feedback/


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